Well done, 24... & welcome back!

The situation in NO is definitely a failure of leadership.

A good read, but I fear you have misread the 2004 election results. Here are the actual numbers from Orlean Parish:

Kerry 152,610
Bush 42,847
Nader 827
Others 819

The situation in New Orleans is complex. The federal government has already spent about $100 billion on New Orleans (~$200,000 per person before the hurricane or ~$400,000 now). Part of that money was used to help the victims, and part was used to secure the levee system, though it should be noted that some of the money was used in securing interests vital to the US economy and national security like the ports and oil refineries. One of the major issues with New Orleans is that not everybody agrees that it should be rebuilt and many of those who left New Orleans have no desire to return (nor do many people want to migrate there). Additionally, many parts of the city are 20 feet below sea level and they are continuing to sink. It is particularly difficult for an individual to convince a bank or an insurance company to support loans for rebuilding given the danger that has already been shown. And no matter what happens as far as funding, half of the houses and businesses in the city will not be reoccupied as the population has already scattered.

It is interesting to note that the situation with New Orleans mimics the situation that occurred in Miami after the 1926 Great Miami hurricane. It took Miami about 30 years to completely rebuild. The same will probably be true with New Orleans.

I think that the more people you have in the decision making process of any project, the slower the progression will be.

With the rebuilding under Saddam you basically had one man saying do this and do that. With the situation in New Orleans, or even in the WTC area, you have so many groups with their "oars in the water".

Although this doesn't exempt FEMA (or a certain insurance company) from culpability in the lack of progress in reconstruction. There have been screw-ups in both the public and private sectors.

John Seal,
Yes. that's what i am talking about. 42,847 is a lot given to the very little Bush has given to thier city.

Lynnette In Minnesota,
That's exactly what my friend told me yesterday when i was telling him about my trip. which made me question "so, dectatorship works better for the poor!" that's scary.

Hi,
I am a native New Orleanian now living on the northshore of Lake Ponchatrain. I am so glad you had a fun time in my hometown. I had to write and say first ignore what Anonymous #1 says. He must be listening to the RNC if he actually believes that hogswill. I won't bore you with the details of the misery the people of the gulf south have been through in the last 20 months. I am sure you know it well. Even so, people here have faced these hardships bravely and with their dark quirky humor intact. That doesn't mean that they give the government a pass at all or think kindly towards the apologists for it (like Anonymous #1) either. There is great anger here towards the incompetence, arrogance and ineptitude shown us. The one thing we can all agree on is that our unique beautiful city and its wonderful culture cannot be left to die. We also have great appreciation for all the wonderful volunteers from our country and all over the world that have come to help us. As of Mardi Gras 2007 I finally felt the city's culture was going to be OK. ( Now the government's levee system I am still now sure about.) I think we should be sister cities, though I know Baghdad is a much larger city. We both know of suffering and rebirth, of sadness and joy. Here's to looking forward to brighter futures for both of our homes.

Resident of New Orleans,
You should never expect that I would be bored just by listening to the sufferings of people. Believe me, the reason why I was very excited to go there, ignoring all the warnings, was because I wanted to know for myself whether it is true that people are rude there [and as you read, they were all wrong.] and also, I wanted to show that although that I am an Iraqi and that I have more than enough problems to deal with, I do care about the people who welcomed me to their country and never made me feel a stranger.
All the best wishes to you guys and to your wonderful and lovely city. This is a city that should be visited by everyone, just to see how nice the people are and how hospitable. I love New Orleans and am waiting to visit more cities in the States and I am sure I will say the same thing about their people.

I think that the more people you have in the decision making process of any project, the slower the progression will be.

"If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator."

"so, dectatorship works better for the poor!"

now, who can tell me which of those statements was made by the (cough cough) 'leader' of the free world?

i love love love new orleans. i don't know who ever told you the people weren't friendly, i have never even heard this rumor before. i spent 2 wonderful weeks in NO. when we first arrived in town we were having some car problems and broke down in front of a cafe at around 7AM. within 2 minutes we had a whole assortment of friendly characters offering to help us out. i was with a couple friends , one who was planning on moving there. we got a newspaper and rented an apartment by 11AM in this gorgeous old building w/really high ceilings and beautiful details in the woodwork. i was so astounded by the architecture everywhere. after a few days my friend and i realized we were the only people living in the building who were white. everytime you passed someone in the hall they said hi and ask where we were from. there was a musician in the building that practiced late into the night.

i loved it. i would love to go back.

it is very very sad about what happened. i have so many feelings about it i wouldn't know where to begin so i won't. i did leave a link on the previous thread tho, what a coincidence because i think it was prior to you letting us know you were there.

how cool you visited new orleans. what an excellent choice. i loved the video, thanks. they have a big jazz festival every year you know, supposed to be just fabulous.

Very well written. Good job. Some thoughts came to my mind as I was reading, but you were smart enough to mention them.

ood ishtari wahidan :D

BT, Ama...
you know the ones i have are even worse. right! you don't have many of this, but i'm telling you, they are the worst! moo awadim w daatak

Glad you liked the people of New Orleans! It is definitely a place on my to see list! I have never heard that people there were rude - quite the opposite! Still many ignorant Northern Americans harbor silly prejudices about Southerners. Just ignore them. Personally, I always thought of Louisiana culture as an American treasure.

Incidentally, a few months ago I met a soldier from New Orleans. He had been on tour in Iraq during Hurricane Katrina's destructive tour of New Orleans. He lost his home and was now, well, homeless. He had returned instead to Southern California with his best friend, a fellow soldier that he had met in Iraq, who was now giving him a place to stay. He told me that he very much likes California despite it being "full of damn Democrats." I asked him what was wrong with Democrats.
"Duh, my boss is a Republican!" I didn't quite see the connection but I guess its an Army thing. I asked him why he volunteered to join the Army.
"To serve my country and help the Iraqi people." He didn't have to pause and think about it and I could tell he really meant it.

That impressed me.

Here was a young man who had lost his home - his whole hometown - even his marriage - while at war - and still knew exactly why he served, what he valued and where his loyalties are. He said the enemy he had fought did not care about Iraqi civilians and only wanted their destruction. He also said, he met so many Iraqis that were thankful that he was there for them. He made it clear that he still felt that the Iraqis were far worse off than he was and he was glad he had helped them. He did not seem to feel the malice and sense of betrayal so many others justifiably feel.

Yeah, that impressed me.

Stereotype! That’s what I think people based their assumptions on when they asked me to be careful. To some extent, I don’t blame them. One of the achievements of Bush’s administration is making most of the Americans wary of Middle Eastern people. They made most of the Americans suspect people like me and think twice before approaching us. All because of what Bush and his alike kept telling the world about the Middle East. “Terrorists who want to kill our freedom.”
But I am glad that I never fall for stereotype. If I don’t try or experience something, I don’t have a say in it. That’s the way I think.

K,
If you ever meet that soldier again, tell him my story from New Orleans. I'm sure he will be happy that, as he worked hard to help my people, I am using my blog as a platform to help his. That's cool, right!

BT Some thoughts came to my mind as I was reading

Omar you know the ones i have are even worse. right! you don't have many of this, but i'm telling you, they are the worst!

it is one of those scenarios where the more you know, the worse it gets. this is why i said i won't even begin. i am sure if you spent time talking to locals, you heard.

I don’t blame them. One of the achievements of Bush’s administration is making most of the Americans wary of Middle Eastern people. They made most of the Americans suspect people like me and think twice before approaching us.

i really don't think as a middle eastern person you should feel 'too special' in this regard, they spread around their distain. it is not just bush, it is the entire gop structure, as it is functioning at present. (this is to say, it is not a long term tradition of all republicans , the party used to be a little more..'normal'). to give you some insight into what i mean by 'don't feel to special' read about a recent proposal for resolution.. immigrants are satan's fault

Don Larsen, chairman of legislative District 65 for the Utah County Republican Party, had submitted a resolution warning that Satan's minions want to eliminate national borders and do away with sovereignty.

In a speech at the convention, Larsen told those gathered that illegal immigrants "hate American people" and "are determined to destroy this country, and there is nothing they won't do."

Illegal aliens are in control of the media, and working in tandem with Democrats, are trying to "destroy Christian America" and replace it with "a godless new world order -- and that is not extremism, that is fact," Larsen said.

At the end of his speech, Larsen began to cry, saying illegal immigrants were trying to bring about the destruction of the U.S. "by self invasion."

frankly, i try to just ignore these people. this is from utah, land of sen. orrin hatch. the same senator hatch that spawned Kyle Sampson, one of the two gop christianistas delegated w/ "the authority, to take final action in matters pertaining to the appointment, employment, pay, separation, and general administration" of virtually all non-civil-service employees of the Justice Department, including all of the department's political appointees who do not require Senate confirmation... isn't that reassuring!! if you want to know how well our justice department is functioning, just look at new orleans! (these kinds of people also have transformed our immigration policies btw)

on that note, today is Law Day.

As long as there was a national consensus about the importance of the rule of law, Law Day felt superfluous, like celebrating gravity. But for six years now, the rule of law has been under attack.

i guess we have k to thank us for injecting partisan conversation into the thread, thank you k.

I haven't been to NO since the hurricane but I was there several times before and what always stunned me was "What an f*** up town this is".

In any normal city, the neighborhoods along the St Charles trolly should have been jewels of stunning upwardly mobile affluence. But in NO, it was cluttered with slums (try to imagine what neighborhoods in less ideal locations were like). The city had a murder rate that rivaled Baghdad.

I lived for 10 years along the Gulf Coast (not far from Iraqi blogger Fayrouz) and NO was certainly not the only place hit by Katrina and Rita in 2005. In some cases, entire towns were totally snuffed out. The difference between those town and New Orleans is that the community of people that made up those other towns was not disfunctional.

I think that is the dividing line between humanitarian disasters and humanitarian catastrophes.

Personally, I'm not enthused about seeing NO rebuilt as it was. The Gulf should be allowed to reclaim the ninth ward. Otherwise, only those who can afford to pay their own way back into New Orleans should return. That will help ensure that the NO that is reborn is not the cesspool and graft-well so much of it used to be.

24Steps,

Stereotype...[the Bush Administration] made most of the Americans suspect people like me and think twice before approaching us. All because of what Bush and his alike kept telling the world about the Middle East.

Ummm...this is not your fault, 24, but I think certain people from the Middle East have done far more than Dubya could ever do to make Americans think twice about approaching people like you.

Also, the unwillingness of particular Americans who look like you and come from similar backgrounds to condemn the words and behavior of those "certain people" and to instead blame American culture and every American Administration since Truman has definitely made things exponentially worse.

24,

"so, dectatorship works better for the poor!"

I once read somewhere that the best form of government was a "benign" dictatorship. Democracy came in second. But I rather think that the term "benign dictatorship" is an oxymoron.

I am a firm believer in individual rights. Which is something you don't get under a dictatorship. I do think, however, that it is the responsibility of people to give back to those less fortunate than themselves. This can be done through many different organizations besides the government. I know there have been church groups, for instance, who have went down to help in New Orleans with clean up. And there are many charitable organizations that one can donate money to if it is not possible to participate personally.

Stereotype...[the Bush Administration] made most of the Americans suspect people like me and think twice before approaching us.

I tend to disagree with this statement. Speaking personally I have never been afraid to speak to people of Middle Eastern decent here or elsewhere.

What I do think is unfortunate is that the behavior of certain groups in the Middle East does tarnish the reputations of moderates there. This also goes for some people who believe they are speaking in defense of some people in the Middle East(such as the Palestinians), but their attitude does more harm than good.

How can we justify pouring billions of dollars into an area that will continue to be threatened with disaster?

Do not rebuild.

I first visited New Orleans back in the summer of 1976 as a young college student when my friend and I drove his van there all the way from Chicago. We stayed for two weeks and had a blast. In August, every afternoon it would rain as if on cue.

Then, sometime in the late 80s, I lived in the Uptown section on Washington Street, just off Magazine (for those who know the city). I spent many a muggy evening slam-dancing at Tipitina's, a club not too far from my apartment.

So I know a bit about New Orleans (certainly more than from just a weekend of walking around and snapping a few photos like 24).

New Orleans, first of all, is built in a shallow area of land between two immense bodies of water, the Mississippi River and Lake Pontchartrain (here is a good illustration of the situation). It's like building a city on the edge of a volcano and being surprised that your city is periodically flooded with lava.

When I lived there, the cost of living was very low because it is NOT an American city on the rise. Almost half of the city's revenue comes from tourism. It is NOT a place to go to improve yourself professionally. I went there simply to hang out, pay cheap rents, and write. It was good for that, but it is a very small city and once you've been there for a few months it's more like a small town.

Any comparison to Baghdad is bordering on the inane. Baghdad is the capital of Iraq, by far its largest city. New Orleans, on the other hand, isn't even in the top-twenty of American cities in terms of population (and there are 54 metropolitan areas in the US with over a million people each).

People still come to New Orleans from around the world to hang out and party. It still has charm. Baghdad, on the other hand, has never welcomed foreigners and will probably always be a zenophobic city and will never be an international city. Sorry, my Iraqi friends, but there are simply too many Iraqis who want to kill anyone from outside Iraq and that's as true today as it was in the past. Before April 9, 2003, anyone from outside Iraq was given "minders," while today they need bodyguards. What do Iraqis think about this? What if BT and 24 were issued "minders" from the US government to follow them around every day? Do they think this is normal when you live in another country? Can't they see just how fucked up their country was?!

I've walked in cities in Europe, Africa, and Asia with no fear. It's only in cities like Baghdad that Arab zenophobia is allowed to blossom (in Morocco, in contrast, this is not the case).

In perhaps the most preposterous skewed line of reasoning I've ever read, 24 writes:

As I blamed Iraqis fro what is happening in Iraq, I now blame people of New Orleans for what is not happening now. I blame them for not having adequate funds to rebuild their city and for lack of federal support for the poor, because hey reelected Bush when they clearly saw how his administration managed the country.

The major problem with the Iraqis is that they live in a society dominated by tribal hatreds in which cycles of revenge are common. In one very important way, Saddam Hussein was not the cause but just the most successful flowering of this societal dynamic. If Iraqis want a chance to become a successful, modern society they will have to break the cycle of believing in dictators. Can they? It's possible, but it will take more patience than the conflicted Arab psyche has ever been asked to maintain.

24 blames those living in New Orleans because they voted for Bush? One would have to look far and wide to encounter another statement of such blatant absurdity.

I have more to say, but I have a few things to do before I continue.

*

only those who can afford to pay their own way back into New Orleans should return. That will help ensure that the NO that is reborn is not the cesspool and graft-well so much of it used to be

this is what happens when 'certain people' want your real estate. especially if you live on the coast.

i enjoyed a family reunion in a little beach town my family had been holidaying at since the turn of the last century. the previous holiday was 5 years before. the contrast was startling. property values had gone up so much the locals were selling off the sweet little houses that dotted the coastline and putting up monstrous million dollar estates. the town had 'arrived'.

we even have new laws (thank you supreme court) which allow municipalities to throw people out of their homes if it can be determined it is in the advantage of the community to do so. in other words, for developers who will bring in higher property values.

never mind that these future disneyland communities have actually been the HOMES of lesser beings for the last few generations.

the residents of new orleans are what have made the culture what it is , unique and a treasured part of the american landscape.

In any normal city, the neighborhoods along the St Charles trolly should have been jewels of stunning upwardly mobile affluence.

normal city?? normal city of the size and population of new orleans?? lots of normal people are not living in jewels of stunning upwardly mobile affluence. in fact it may be a shock to learn that the upward mobility in this country is focused on the top 1%. we haven't had a period in our economic history to match this inequality since the 1020's. the era was referred to as 'the gilded age'.

many of the people who lost there homes had lived in the area for their entire lives and those homes represented their entire security, as for the majority of americans who do not have trust funds and stock portfolios and keep their equity in the real estate. and for these people you think they should not be allowed to return until they pay there way back?

i have ceased to be amazed by your stupidity.

ignorant Northern Americans harbor silly prejudices about Southerners.

silly silly silly!

for a little history i recommend a book called rising tideThe Great Mississippi Flood of 1927 and How it changed America. the editorial review is noteworthy.

"To save New Orleans, the leaders proposed a radical plan."


“The ports between Baton Rouge and New Orleans comprise the largest port system in the world. We provide 36 states with maritime commerce and mid-western farmers depend upon our ports and waterways to get their crops to market." U.S. Sen. David Vitter

valuable real estate.

Despite the fact that the affected region contains only about 1% of the United States work force, it accounted for around US$ 150 billion of the country’s external trade (20% of the total) in oil, steel, grain, veneered wood and other goods that enter the United States.

lots of oil refineries in louisianna. they really like those off shore casinos down there too. it could be developed into a wonderful little playland for the rich and famous.

nice location. all they need is enough local 'color' to prance around the french quarter to make it look 'authentic'. right cmar?

Baghdad, on the other hand, has never welcomed foreigners

i was posting at the time jefferys post went up and missed reading it yil now. what can one say when encountering such xenophobic hatred?

24,

19 Arab Muslims flying planes into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon and into a field in Pennsylvania have EVERYTHING to do with Americans being a bit wary about Arab Muslims in the US.

And yet we have a lot of Arabs who live in our country without the fear of being chopped up and hung over a bridge. This is a country of considerable tolerance. There were very few instances of revenge attacks in the US even after 9/11. In my neighborhood here in Astoria, New York, there are quite a few Arabs and several mosques. The guys at the corner grocery are from Yemen and they run their business like anyone else.

This tolerance is part of our history because Americans come from all over the world. In my extended family, we have family members from every continent and we are all Americans.

I have many Arab students and I absolutely treat them the same as students from other areas of the world.

Remember, 24, in the US we have the Statue of Liberty (with its 24 Steps) while you in Iraq had hundreds of statues and murals of SADDAM HUSSEIN. Again, don't you realize that you grew up in a massively fucked-up country?

Okay, now I really do have to get some work done. But I'll be back later because I believe it's really important to counter 24's febrile logic.

*

24,

The quality of the videos is pretty good. What kind of camera did you use?

*

24, did you ask anyone in NO why they re-elected Nagin as mayor?

Jeffrey,
You: “So I know a bit about New Orleans (certainly more than from just a weekend of walking around and snapping a few photos like 24).”

Well, at least I did my job and went there before I discussed or wrote about the issue. Now, you try to go to Iraq before you talk about Iraqis!

What are you saying? You are totally off our discussion. I would really want to reply to you, just please make sense!

Don’t play smart ass on me, because you know I reason and never let hatred type my lines for me, like you do! And in such equation, I will always win.

And by the way, I used Nokia n95. It is a new $800 phone that school gave us to experiment. It is a very good tool for journalists, who want to do a package of reporting, because it has a very good resolution for photos and videos.

i would like to address another impact of katrina not covered in your post Omar, and one you may not be familiar w/the effects of.


Everyone talks about how much better the American media has gotten post-Katrina, when much of the mainstream press suddenly realized they were being played. But in my experience -- dealing with major reporters on a week-to-week basis -- there's a strange obsession with manipulated objectivity.

Take global warming. Five years ago, the New York Times devoted roughly half their articles on global warming to skeptics, regardless of the fact that skeptics constituted less than five percent of scientists researching the issue.

Global warming is real, and so is the chilling effect of corporate media juggernauts.

I don't blame reporters. They're doing what they can in a world where five corporations own more than 80 percent of what America sees. The "chilling effect" of corporate parents and the ever-looming bottom line quells individuality and bold, aggressive journalism.

there was an undeniable impact of the disconnect between administrative narrative, and what people were seeing on there televisions.

because blogs were already in full swing and ordinary citizens started getting to work, crossposting, finding out what was going on.

the levee didn't actually break until after the storm had passed, the entire week just dragged out and days after those of us on the blogs were saying "WHATS HAPPENING" finally it got said on msm. but i would say a huge portion of he population was following the story, and certainly on the internet.

there were also help boards set up and people were rushing down there to help and being turned away. there were rescue professionals hired by the government diverted to other states sitting in convention centers being 'reeducated', and writing about it. the failures were stacking up so fast, pdf files w/proff of government communications/letter being released/gov studies/ just reams and reams of information that came flodding in before the 'official narrative' that was so behind the curve of the facts palying out right in front of the TV screen.. just amazing.

there was this guy posting who was a fireman , a rescue worker, one of the one's being diverted to the other state and waiting around to work going crazy, finally they come get him.. to appear w/the president in a staged photo op.. and the photoh was all over the news and you could see him clearly, and then he is posting about it before it even appears on the news.

they simply could not com=ntrol the message, and thats when the tide really turned. so many of us knew we had been told a pack of lies for so many years by this administration but it wasn't till katrina that most people just 'got it'. especially when the people telling their stories were the professional that USED TO RUN FEMA, back when it was one of the very best operations we had going. back before it was run by some horse trader w/ties to the gop and no experience what so ever.

this is the sort of weird story that had been going on time and time again thruout all the federal departments,but people just weren't catching on. katrina was the wake up call.

big time. if there was ever a case for coordinated chaos...damn.

the country was rivitted. it seems the only person who was unaware (or so he claims) was you know who.

there are comparrisons to this day to the term "heck of a job, brownie" has been used in recent comedy jokes regarding bush's response to gonzales saying 'i can't recall' over a 100 times and then getting applauded by bush.

people found out his campaign guy from houston Joe Allbaugh awarded the top post @fema when he came in office, jow works as a lobbiest for halliburton now.

it just connected the dots for all the people who don't really ay attention to politics, don't want to, don't really care... but just are not racist enough to see what was going on.

bush has never pulled himself up from the drop in popularity, and he never will. we saw him for what he was, and only the total diehard nutcases still hang on to the illusion bush is honorable.

one of the fallouts of katrina was that people started trusting alternative news sources over msm, no more trust in the prez, they didn't trust his war either. and they were really pissed in louisiana that out national guard, who are the guards of the STATES run by the governors, were all in iraq.

thats when the tide turned in america.

sorry for all the many typos

should say

but just are not racist enough NOT to see what was going on.

24,

Well, at least I did my job and went there before I discussed or wrote about the issue. Now, you try to go to Iraq before you talk about Iraqis!

When Baghdad becomes a safe place for foreign tourists, I'll be the first one in line. When you get back home, do me a favor and help make that possible, okay?

Hey, listen, I'm glad that you went to New Orleans. It is a cool, laid-back city and the old arhcitecture in the French Quarter is unique. And, as you've already found out, Americans are generally friendly people, not just in New Orleans. Not all countries are like that, I can assure you.

I play smart-ass with you because I am, well, smart. Heh heh. AND well-traveled, which gives me a distinct advantage over you, who had been imprisoned by Saddam Hussein for life until the day he took a fast cab out of Iraq with his nose sticking above the door frame and probably wearing a woman's dress. So much for the BRAVE SALADIN, I guess.

Listen, on the important issues, we are on the same side. I want Iraq to succeed; so do you. I want American troops out of Iraq sooner rather than later; so do you.

And then we may differ a bit on other issues. You blame the Iraqi people for maintaining Saddam in power; however, I do not blame the Iraqi people themselves but the tribal culture in which they were born and raised, a tribalism that reinforces hatred of others and zenophobia.

$800 phone? Man, where do you go to school? Okay, city or state would be nice, if you're afraid of the long arm of the Anbar Baathists reaching out and touching you.

*

24,

What are you saying? You are totally off our discussion. I would really want to reply to you, just please make sense!

YOU are the one who made the claim that Americans are wary of Arabs because of Bush.

Let me repeat:

19 Arab Muslims flying planes into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon and into a field in Pennsylvania have EVERYTHING to do with Americans being a bit wary about Arab Muslims in the US.

YOU made the claim. My response is perfectly on-topic.

And yet you, as an Arab, can walk anywhere you want in America without fear of being chopped up and having your body parts hung over a bridge. That tells you something about the tolerance of American culture, doesn't it?

*

Jeffrey,
“19 Arab Muslims flying planes into the Twin Towers and the Pentagon and into a field in Pennsylvania.”

Oh yaaa? Well, there are 20,000 Americans running in my country killing my people just for fun
. What do you say about that? Your “19” number seem very little to me when I read that. You should be ashamed of yourself. Hatred has blinded you.

24,

I have no hatred for Arabs. As I said before, I have many Arab students and I have very good relations with all of them.

I live in a strong, free, dynamic democratic country and I am very proud of our military. The overwhelming majority of those serving are thoroughly professional in their conduct, even while living daily in a very dangerous environment.

Your claim that 20,000 Americans are "killing my people for fun" is absurd. If 20,000 Americans were doing so, they could kill all Baghdadis in a few weeks.

You can walk around safely in my country, but no foreigner (it doesn't matter where they're from) can do the same in Iraq. I hope that in the future this changes.

Think about it. Iraq can indeed change but that will mean Iraqis as a group will have to face honestly for the first time the dysfunctional nature of their society over the last thirty years or so. YOU yourself have already faced and admitted that there are problems in Iraqi society, and that's why you're already on your way to a different conception of what Iraq can be.

*




*

@ Jeffrey, 8:55 AM & following.

BTW, dear American 'professor', your "zenophobia" should be (as you should know) "xenophobia" (from Ancient Greek 'xenos', which means 'foreigner', + Ancient Greek 'phobia', which means 'terror, dread'.

So, be a bit more humble in your lecturing ...

Italiano,

My undergraduate degree was in English and Classics (Latin and Ancient Greek). I can still read Sallustius Crispus, for example, and struggle through Plato with my Liddel-Scott in hand.

And xenophobia is exactly what affects Iraqi society today. Sorry about that typo. It looks like like your boorishness is as virulent as always.

Hey, I like the idea of "Zenophobia," a fear of the pointed, vice-like arguments put forward by Zeno of Elea.

I think that Parmenides suffered from "Zenophobia." Heh heh.

Let's see how much Ancient Greek philosophy you really understand.

*

Jeffrey,
I don’t claim anything. I linked to a story that quotes your people, not mine. Also, it is obvious that you didn’t even try to read the first paragraph in the story, yet you commented back. Typical of you.
If you read two lines in the story, you will know that I wasn’t talking about the American Army or Marines, who I respect and appreciate the work of. I am talking about the murderous security dogs who are killing my people for fun [that’s a fact. Go read the story]
But still, not surprised, you usually comment before even trying to know what people are talking about, and that’s my friend because you are driven by hatred.
By the way, having Arabs in your class doesn’t mean you respect them. Not in million years. You don’t choose your students.

this is insane.

i cannot believe anyone would have the nerve to come on this thread and justify hatred and fear of arabs because of 9/11, especially iraqis!!!!!!!!.

and you are an educator!! i pity your students, get a grip!

PS, i can assure you there are many places in this country if a foriegner invaded w/shock and awe they should be quite certain they would meet a fate as bad at being killed and hung over a bridge.

it is totally unqualified to judge the hospitality of citizens of a country after you invade them.

can we get back to new orleans now.

24,

By the way, having Arabs in your class doesn’t mean you respect them. Not in million years. You don’t choose your students.

Do you know any school where the teachers SELECT their students?

I treat all my students -- and they come from all over the world -- with respect and I am both very diligent and professional in teaching them how to read, write, and speak English.

I've been teaching for around seventeen years and over those years hundreds of Arab students from many countries have thanked me for my classes and dedication to their improvement. I appreciate all of them. I will not have YOU tell me how I feel about Arabs. As those who have followed me in the Iraqi blogosphere over the last four years know, I have never ascribed to the essentialist fallacy that people are born only with one set of attributes. Cultures modify people's behavior, to be sure, for the good and the bad. Iraq's problem is that its people had lived under a dictator for so long that it will take some time before they can remove his influence from their thinking. I hate totalitarian dictators like Saddam Hussein and Kim Jong Il. I have hope that Iraqis and North Koreans will one day live without the fear of tyranny.

*

24,

You write:

I don’t claim anything.

Well, here's one claim:

One of the achievements of Bush’s administration is making most of the Americans wary of Middle Eastern people. They made most of the Americans suspect people like me and think twice before approaching us.

But you also write:

What was even better is that people didn’t care where I am from, like everywhere else. All what they cared about is what I was doing and when it will be published.

This is called a contradiction. In the first excerpt you claim that Bush made people "wary of Middle Eastern people." In the second excerpt, you claim that American people don't care where you are from and they are not wary or suspicious.

Which one is true?

*

I treat all my students -- and they come from all over the world -- with respect

fyi, treating someone w/respect is NOT the same as respecting them.

you have said plenty here that shows what your inside is like.

Jeffrey,

We do NOT live in a 'free country'.

The President can detain any of us--citizen or not, and I am not--on a whim, and send us to Guantanamo for the rest of our days.

We have lost habeas corpus. The administration is working on gutting our feeble press freedoms even further through their own version of Britain's Official Secrets Act. I have already been visited by the Secret Service for writing a letter of dissent. The proof that we are living on the edge of a fascist dictatorship is growing more evident every day.

USA 2007 is Germany 1933.

Kind regards,

John

btw, there is not a contradiction in Omar's statement.

making most of the Americans wary of Middle Eastern people.

who are the others??? one could claim 170 million are 'most americans'

that leaves another 130 million does it not???

maybe the americans in NO are more friendly that the one's in some other states, like the red one's.

there is no contradiction smart ass. and btw, that does not mean you are smart. it means your ass is, in other words your BS is potent. but your punch isn't!

john seal, exactly the point in my law day link.

Just an aside. As I said, one of the great aspects of my job is getting to talk to people from all over the world every semester. This semester I have a student from Belarus who was a nuclear-propulsion officer on a submarine for the old Soviet Union. I've heard some interesting stories from him.

*

john seal

re new orleans. before katrina hit when the governor contacted the WH and requested national assistance they told her she would have to turn over control of her state to the federal government to get it. this was unheard of and she refused, rightly so.

he held off, and he held off. some speculate he was trying to do that to set some sort of precedent....

sure enough, last october...

In a stealth maneuver, President Bush has signed into law a provision which, will allow the President to declare federal martial law. It does so by revising the Insurrection Act, a set of laws that limits the President's ability to deploy troops within the United States. The Insurrection Act (10 U.S.C.331 -335) has historically, along with the Posse Comitatus Act (18 U.S.C.1385), helped to enforce strict prohibitions on military involvement in domestic law enforcement. With one cloaked swipe of his pen, Bush is seeking to undo those prohibitions.

Public Law 109-364, or the "John Warner Defense Authorization Act of 2007" (H.R.5122) (2), which was signed by the commander in chief on October 17th, 2006, in a private Oval Office ceremony, allows the President to declare a "public emergency" and station troops anywhere in America and take control of state-based National Guard units without the consent of the governor or local authorities, in order to "suppress public disorder."

chipping away at out freedoms, one day at a time.

If you ever meet that soldier again, tell him my story from New Orleans. I'm sure he will be happy that, as he worked hard to help my people, I am using my blog as a platform to help his. That's cool, right!

Very cool! Your blog does make a difference. Nothing has more power over nations than well reasoned discussion between their citizens. I doubt I will see either of those soldiers again but if I do, I will let him know what you said. Normally when I meet someone who has been to Iraq I want to ask them a million questions, not lecture them about blogging. ;-)

I love New Orleans and am waiting to visit more cities in the States and I am sure I will say the same thing about their people.

Omar,

You should come to Los Angeles! It's very different from the East Coast. San Francisco is very nice too but L.A. has mountains, Hollywood and the beach! If you come to L.A. my friends, family and I would gladly give you tour of SoCal. Some find us Southern Californians a bit materialistic compared to our counterparts in other parts of the country but I think its our glitter and gold that sets us apart for the better! I have never known a happier, more diverse, more tolerant, more free place than California and I know you will simply love it. Everyone does!

Jeffrey: "Hey, I like the idea of "Zenophobia," a fear of the pointed, vice-like arguments put forward by Zeno of Elea."

I have Zenaphobia- irrational fear of campy warrior princesses. Wait, did I say "fear"? I meant something else. Maybe not for her so much (she looks like a truck) but her sidekick Gabrielle was good to go.

K: "You should come to Los Angeles! It's very different from the East Coast. San Francisco is very nice too but L.A. has mountains, Hollywood and the beach! If you come to L.A. my friends, family and I would gladly give you tour of SoCal."

Don't forget to stop in Phoenix, AZ. Come in the summer and the heat will remind you of home. Come in the winter and you'll see why we tolerate the summer. Come any time and I'll have a bike waiting for you.

24,
New Orleans resident here again. Just a few comments on the postings. I never realized until after the storm how different our culture was from most of America. New Orleans culture, though totally unique, has a lot of europeon and caribbean influences. Money does not rule in NOLA. In fact to "show" you have money is considered gauche. It is the most REAL city in the US, people accept and cherish differences. Life would be boring if we were all the same! LOL! The importance of business is behind faith, family, and quality of life. It is a necessity to live, certainly not the focus as it is in much of "getting ahead" America. People truly care for one another. They know their neighbors and often have family living very close by. They watch out and help one another. We like nothing better than to show visitors our way of life. I was struck on travels how nobody talks to strangers. We talk to whoever we are standing in line with and even call them "baby" or "honey". We waive to people we see on the street if we know them or not. Most of all we love our city and it's culture. It is an entity to us, a thing that is part of our soul. If it dies, we will mourn forever. I don't understand this hate we get from our own countrymen that say "Don't rebuild it", that we are "lazy!?" not to have the city rebuilt yet (CMAR, my mother lives in Pass Christian, MS. It consists of empty lots with slabs . The town itself now consists of 6 trailers. Is this the great recovery of MS? You don't know what you are talking about. It was a catastrophe in MS and LA and both have suffered terribly.) Americans seem to take it as a personal afront that poor people live here and had the nerve to be seen by the world. As a local columnist wrote "Americans did not like what they saw on TV and for that we must be punished." I think racism has to be at the core of a lot of this hate shoveled on us because it is so irrational. In a way it is funny how these "super patriotic" types think nothing on turning their backs on a whole region of their own country. The good news is that they will be out of power totally soon and out of power for probably several decades to come. The long and short of this post is that New Orleans is American but it is not typically American at all. If you visit other American cities, don't expect the same thing. People are still nice but in a much more reserved stand offish kind of way. And they are kind of hampered by worrying about appearances. And they must be VERY judgemental from all the feedback we are getting. (Funny that we put up the misery mostly with a smile, while America moans and groans at every turn.) I also thought you might like to read this blog about a man visiting the city (He is a democratic activist). He has caught the feel of living in the city today pretty closely.
http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/5/1/164351/6676

Jeffrey,
Don’t twist the conversation. When I said “I don’t claim anything” I meant to reply to your based-on-nothing sentence: “Your claim that 20,000 Americans are….” That I didn’t claim. That was a fact that was written in The Washington Post supported by months of reporting and quotes from people involved in the issue.

As for me saying “One of the achievements of Bush’s administration is making most of the Americans wary of Middle Eastern people. They made most of the Americans suspect people like me and think twice before approaching us.” That is not a claim.
That is my observation in the last five years and will say it again and again because it simply is the truth. But what is good about it is that you Bush has lost his credibility now and people are starting to examine things by themselves. And that’s why I was happy in NO and I am happy to be in the States.

As for walking in my country and feeling not safe, well… Annie answered that very well.

Annie,
I am taking ceramics class next year. Maybe you can teach me some tricks?

aahhh!!!!

i would so love to!! it is all your fault i have fallen behind. i have another show coming up and must get to work. was just contacted by a ceramic periodical for another article i promised for next fall and they want the photos and work by june 1.. 1!!!!!

i can't . i would so love to see some of your work. i will email you soon. that is so cool. i love clay. there is nothing like it. perhaps i will come to your school and do a demo/workshop which i have done before and really enjoyed.

oh, you are such an artist, it is in your blood isn't it.

i took some time off to find some fresh expression that speaks for my turmoil regarding my love for my country and the way it pulls me apart what is happening in yours. it is hard to find the balance between beauty and pain.

sometimes you find one in the other.. weird huh? i will make a piece for you for all you have given me.

in my excitement i missed an important word... i can't ... wait!
(to meet you someday)

(CMAR, my mother lives in Pass Christian, MS. It consists of empty lots with slabs . The town itself now consists of 6 trailers. Is this the great recovery of MS?

Wanna know the difference between Pass Christian, MS and NO? The people of Pass Christian, MS weren't appalled that some bureaucrat in Washington DC didn't rush to save them (nor a bureacrat at any level).

t was a catastrophe in MS and LA and both have suffered terribly.

And Texas...don't forget about Texas.

No. Other places in LA and MS and TX suffered a disaster. But those places didn't typically require martial law nor cause the question to be imposed of whether national guardsmen should shoot civilians.

Americans seem to take it as a personal afront that poor people live here and had the nerve to be seen by the world.

Other cities on the Gulf and everywhere else have poor people, and they know what they look like. NO is different, and what happened there was different. Get real.

As a local columnist wrote "Americans did not like what they saw on TV and for that we must be punished."

No. Just don't ask the rest of America to pay for it.

I think racism has to be at the core of a lot of this hate shoveled on us because it is so irrational.

Absurd.

In a way it is funny how these "super patriotic" types think nothing on turning their backs on a whole region of their own country.

Among other Gulf cities, I lived for two years in Houston. Perhaps you've heard of Houston? Actually, lots of "super patriotic types" from Waco to Shreveport to Meridian took in NO refugees who have opted to remain there and probably will unless someone gives them a big fat check of someone else's money to return.

24,

Let's try this again:

Here's the first claim (or observation, as you write):

A. One of the achievements of Bush’s administration is making most of the Americans wary of Middle Eastern people. They made most of the Americans suspect people like me and think twice before approaching us.

But you also write:

B. What was even better is that people didn’t care where I am from, like everywhere else. All what they cared about is what I was doing and when it will be published.

In the first excerpt you claim that Bush made people "wary of Middle Eastern people." In the second excerpt, you claim that American people don't care where you are from and they are not wary or suspicious.

Which one is true? A or B?

Just choose one and help us all out.

*

24,

I didn't want deal with this this morning but now that I have time...

People from all kinds were still without houses and are still living in trailers.

You know why they're still living in trailers? Because the Federal Government paid for the trailers for two years (are they still paying for them?). The unemployment in the US is around 4.5%. Traditionally, 5% is full employment. Zone those trailers out, and they will stop depressing the market for houses and apartments.

In 1991, Iraq was destroyed, mainly Baghdad and other big cities like Mosul, Basra. The Americans made sure that the average Iraqis didn’t get water, electricity, or food. And they made sure to also bomb the communication buildings so the average Iraqis didn’t have a way to know about each other and what was going on.

Of course this is true...because Americans hate 'average Iraqis', right? It didn't have anything to do with the fact that Iraq's societal structure meant everything in Iraq belonged to Saddam and the Ba'athist regime that invaded a neighboring country, right? You're trying to have it both ways again: 1) Average Iraqis had no say over how the assets of their country were used by Saddam.
2) The US attacked assets belonging to average Iraqis...not Saddam's assets.

This won't fly.

What struck me is that New Orleans people overwhelmingly voted for Bush in 2004! And don’t know why they did that. What were they thinking!

Perhaps because despite what we saw on TV, despite how screwed up NO has alway been (and that's its attraction, right?), MOST New Orleans citizens recognize that their fates and successes and hardships are not bequeathed to them by the national government.

The quicker Iraqis realize this, the faster reconstruction will begin. Probably Bush's biggest mistake was in thinking that so basic an American presumption as that was instinctive to all people. Thus his expectations went arye at that point.

The Kurds had 12 years to get their acts together...that's an advantage. The Arab Iraqis have had $500 billion and the US army, that's a major advantage too.

As, John Lennon said "...you better free your mind instead".


But what is good about it is that you Bush has lost his credibility now...

I don't think I'd crow about this too much. Bush doesn't need too much popular "credibility" because he's not running for anything. However, to the extent he has lost --and will lack-- credibility, it will only redound to Iraq being abandoned in a way the NO residents never truly were, and abandoned to a much worse fate.

CMAR II,

This Anonymous Guy from NO is something, isn't he?

Money does not rule in NOLA. In fact to "show" you have money is considered gauche. It is the most REAL city in the US, people accept and cherish differences.

I love that. NO is the "most real city in the US." Phew! I would love to see a list of indicators for "realness" in cities.

The importance of business is behind faith, family, and quality of life. It is a necessity to live, certainly not the focus as it is in much of "getting ahead" America. People truly care for one another. They know their neighbors and often have family living very close by. They watch out and help one another. We like nothing better than to show visitors our way of life.

Goodnight, Pa.

Goodnight, John-Boy.

(Inside joke for those Americans familiar with the 70s TV show called "The Waltons.")

As some of you know, I grew up in that little Midwestern town where they filmed "Field of Dreams." It's extremely funny, therefore, to listen to Anonynmous Guy from NO play his old ban-jo on his knee, as he overlooks to mention the high-crime stats that have always plagued New Orleans. Listen, I lived there and it is a thoroughly easy-going kind of place, but this Waltons schtick on the ol' ban-jo just ain't gonna fly.

*

24,

If you are planning to be a journalist, you better improve your fact-finding skills.

You write:

What struck me is that New Orleans people overwhelmingly voted for Bush in 2004! And don’t know why they did that. What were they thinking!

They did NOT. As that commenter pointed out very early in this comment string, Kerry defeated Bush in New Orleans. He wrote:

Here are the actual numbers from Orlean Parish:

Kerry 152,610
Bush 42,847
Nader 827
Others 819

While Bush got the most votes in the state of Louisiana (1,102,109 to Kerry's 820,299), Kerry overwhelminlgy won Orleans Parish (77% for Kerry to 22% for Bush).

THIS offers a good visual representation of the 2004 state-wide and parish-specific results for Louisiana.

So I guess Orleans Parish was PUNISHED by God for voting for KERRY!

Divine retribution, indeed!

*

Jeffrey,

[New Orleans] did NOT [vote for Bush].

I knew this fundamental premise smelled suspicious but I figured "Well, 24 has just been there. Someone who knows must have told him this." If New Orleans had gone Republican, it surely would have been the first time since Andrew Jackson (okay, maybe Reconstruction).

LA *did* go strong for Bush however (one more major rift between New Orleans and everyone else in the region). So did MS and TX and AL. If I were to make 24Steps premise true by broadening its scope to the Gulf Coast states, I would say that Katrina did not affect the peoples' vote there because the culture in Dixie is deeply offended (in principle, that is) at the idea of requiring hand-outs. That's what makes the complaints of some in NOLA sound so strident and arrogant to me.

By the way, the people in NOLA are very friendly, but (as their murder rate will attest) they are on-the-whole less friendly than the towns for 100s of miles to the north, west, and south of them.

All this has inspired me to quote from my favorite novel, "A Confederacy of Dunces". The hero says of NOLA:

"This city is famous for its gamblers, prostitutes, exhibitionists, anti-Christs, alcoholics, sodomites, drug addicts, fetishists, onanists, pornographers, frauds, jades, litterbugs and lesbians. If you have a moment, I shall endeavor to discuss the crime problem with you, but don't make the mistake of bothering me."

heh heh

"north, west, and EAST of them".

Those south of them are adrift in the Gulf and are naturally extra grouchy because of it.

Confederacy of Dunces! John Kennedy Toole. I read that novel when it first came out back in 1980. I can still imagine him writing on his Big Chief notebooks.

Great reference and clip!

By the way, Walker Percy's "Moviegoer" is also a good NO novel.

*

Jeffrey and Cmar. I am a 53 year old woman dentist that sadly voted for Mr. Bush twice. I will die trying to rectify that mistake. My 80 ear old mother lives a block off the beach. Neither of you have a CLUE as to what is going on in the area. It is useless to even try to discuss things with you because you don't want to have a clue. It is people like you two that are turning people away from the Republican Party. Hate doesn't "sell" in America. As to "realness", you would have to have a soul to understand that and both of you are obviously absent that. And Jeffrey, intelligence and wisdom are two VERY different things.

Wow! Now we have an Anonymous Gal who also knows how to play the OL' BAN-JO!

Maybe she can get together with Anonymous Guy from NO and they can play the theme from "Deliverance"!

Cool!

And Jeffrey, intelligence and wisdom are two VERY different things.

I too think it is remarkable that I combine BOTH.

*

My wife and I were in the Caribbean during Hurricane Rita. If you don't remember, Rita was the ugly younger sister of Katrina that threatened New Orleans again just one month after Katrina had hit. In fact, we were stranded there because all the flights back to the U.S. were canceled. It was actually a beautiful place to be stuck and Rita was nowhere near us so we tried to just enjoy it. A local fisherman invited us to have a homemade Ital (Rastafari) meal with his friends on his boat. After one of the best meals of my life, the conversation turned to poor New Orleans.

"God destroyed New Orleans to punish Bush for invading Iraq." hmm, I thought. But kept my mouth shut.

The next Rastafarian chimed in. "No, that's not it! God was punishing the people of New Orleans for practicing voodoo." huh?

I was next in the circle. "So what do you think? Why do you think God made this happen?" I was uncomfortable. I'm not too accustomed to discussing religion with strangers and my views on Iraq aren't too popular either.
"Well . . . I'm a scientist . . . and I don't really believe God picks and chooses where a Hurricane strikes just because of human choices. Perhaps God made the laws of nature, including the laws of weather, and then some things just happen. Good, bad, it just happens. Its up to us to try and understand how, not why."

They didn't seem convinced.

"Actually, a lot scientists knew about the danger for many years before it happened. New Orleans was at risk from a hurricane and we all knew it." Its true. There was even a January 2005 Nova episode on PBS about the impending disaster nine months before it happened.

"What!?" This really was new to all of them. "Why didn't they warn people?"
I didn't have a good answer. Actually, I had been feeling pretty guilty about that. Why didn't we do more. One T.V. show? That was the best all the world's scientists could do? "Well . . . we did try" I struggled to convince myself. "People don't always listen to scientists."

That is an understatement.

The flood risk in New Orleans or the risk of global warming, people only listen to scientist after its too late. One problem is scientist don't always agree. They also don't talk in absolutes, only probabilities.

The fisherman jumped in to defend, me, scientists, the victims, everyone, with a simple fact.
"People don't want to leave their houses. Its everything to them."
Yeah, that answered it. Even if you could warn them, what would you say? You have to leave your home because a storm might come? That had already happened five times that season alone. If you cry 'wolf' too many times, you loose your impact.

Since then I have thought about all the other things I wanted to warn people about. Not just how global warming was "probably" real but how the same type of enriched uranium for a power plant could be used in bombs if the process is continued, or how there is overwhelming historical evidence that dictatorships are the most "probable" cause of war, famine and genocide. These things are just as real dangers to me as the risk was to New Orleans back then. I didn't do enough to warn people then so I am not going to make that mistake again.

Hmmm...Anonymous Gal will spend her life atoning for voting for Bush. K will spend his life atoning not warning the people of NOLA that they were underwater in a Hurricane highway. ;-) K will do this by supporting the overthrow of dictatorships and establishing democracies. Well, that is a righteous act regardless of who does it and why: even if it is done by Kim Jong Il...which I doubt it will be.

But, I'm not going to seek atonement for hurting the feelings Nawlinians. I entered this discussion by remarking that NOLA was a seriously screwed up city before Katrina and that the people who've left are probably better off. I didn't think the first point was disputable. Heck, I thought that was the central feature of NOLA's tourism advertising campaign. As for the second point, I'm backed up by the 100s of 1000s of refugees who have no serious intention of returning to NOLA's dangerous, purposeless public schools, endlessly corrupt politicians and police, and the stew of petty graft that's so ubiquitous its not even noticed as such.

I won't psychoanalyze why so many people in NOLA lived in slums before Katrina and didn't leave. I can assure you it is not because people in NOLA like slums, Anonymous. If that were true, the Garden District would be slum and Loyola University would be a meth den.

Jeffrey,
My favorite scene in ACOD is when Ignatius J. Riley critiques the paintings of the ladies garden club. He says: "Obviously you women need to get used to holding a brush. You should all get together and paint someone's house."

24 Steps, this was a really excellent post. I only wish I could have gotten in on the conversation earlier.

I too find it extremely ironic and telling that the US would spend around 500 billion dollars to invade Iraq to “help” Iraqis out of sheer altruism, when it won’t even spend a fraction of that money to help its own people. I find it very suspicious that America says it wants to help Iraqis (instead of helping Americans) when people like Jeffrey admit that Americans are “wary” of Arabs in general.

Something smells rotten in this story.

Something tells me that sheer altruism is not the motivating factor in the invasion of Iraq, and that in fact altruism has very little to do with the story at all. The truth is, as you noted: [24] “The Americans made sure that the average Iraqis didn’t get water, electricity, or food. And they made sure to also bomb the communication buildings so the average Iraqis didn’t have a way to know about each other and what was going on.”

Those are not the actions of a country motivated by generosity.

The truth is that the Hussein invasion of Kuwait could have EASILY been defeated WITHOUT blasting Iraqi civilian targets, yet the US did it anyway, as a means to punish ordinary Iraqis and to make them pay for Hussein’s excesses. It was a way of terrorising Iraqis and showing them what happens when one goes against the US. During the sanctions years the US, using its veto on the sanctions committee, made sure that Iraq was starved of the goods necessary to keep the country running. We’re not talking only about dubious items such as dual-use pesticides that could be converted into gas weapons here. We’re talking about items such as water-purification equipment, powerplant spares and children’s pencils.

Again, this was a way of showing Iraqis what happens when one goes against the US, a tactic more worthy of bin Laden than any civilised country.

[Jeffrey] “I hate totalitarian dictators like Saddam Hussein and Kim Jong Il.”

Let’s not forget the evil Mubarak, Faisal, Pinochet, the Shah of Iran, Trujillo, Suharto, Musharraf, the assorted emirs of Kuwait, UAE, Oman, Bahrain … etc etc. All of which were / are US clients at one stage or another.

But I bet if Kim Jong Il became a Bush butt-buddy, things would be WAAAY different, right? Just like Ghaddaffi is no longer a threat to the world and actually just a misunderstood, OK-guy … after he kowtowed to the US, right? Interesting to note how US foreign policy works.

And, I’d also like to weigh in on this little exchange:
*
“[24] “ One of the achievements of Bush’s administration is making most of the Americans wary of Middle Eastern people. They made most of the Americans suspect people like me and think twice before approaching us.”

[Jeffrey] “But you also write:”

[24] “What was even better is that people didn’t care where I am from, like everywhere else. All what they cared about is what I was doing and when it will be published.”

[Jeffrey] “This is called a contradiction. […]Which one is true?”
*

Actually, it’s not a contradiction.

It’s called a False Dilemma.

And it’s sad to see a supposedly intelligent person like Jeffrey stoop to using this logical fallacy against an honest person like 24. Particularly since you are deliberately misinterpreting 24’s words in order to twist them into something they are not. It’s abundantly clear that 24 is talking about Americans in general in the first case and New Orleanians (?) in general in the second case. It’s quite clear that he’s impressed with the open manner of the people of New Orleans as opposed to the Americans outside the city. There’s no contradiction at all.

[anon] And Jeffrey, intelligence and wisdom are two VERY different things.
[Jeffrey] “I too think it is remarkable that I combine BOTH.”

Oh, for crying out loud! Ever think of using your ego as an anchor for supertankers, Jeffrey?

Annie –

Good comments, thanks. The way the executive branch of the US is slowly taking over all the subsidiary states is indeed worrying, not to mention the dispute of habeas corpus, which is the cornerstone of any serious legal system.

BTW, I never knew that you worked in the ceramics field. That’s interesting - I’ve done ceramic work myself. What sort of goods do you produce?



[Lynnette] “I once read somewhere that the best form of government was a "benign" dictatorship.”

If I well recall, it was Plato that said that. There’s a lot of truth to that statement. A single well-meaning person can do far more good far quicker than a committee of well-meaning people. History has proven this. Of course, history has also proven that the downsides of a dictatorship are very bad indeed, and that a bad democracy is infinitely better than a bad dictatorship. It’s the downsides of both methods of government that make democracy come out the winner, not the upsides.

Bruno,

Something tells me that sheer altruism is not the motivating factor in the invasion of Iraq, and that in fact altruism has very little to do with the story at all.

CMAR II, RhusLancia, and I have all stated very clearly at one time or another that the US removed Saddam Hussein, first and foremost, for our OWN security.

About 24's two contradictory statements, Let's take a close look at what he said:

What was even better is that people didn’t care where I am from, like everywhere else.

I read that to mean that, in general, the people he has met in the US so far do not care where he's from and are not wary of him; this conflicts, in my mind, with the first statement he made about Bush making all people suspicious of Arab men.

Listen, maybe 24 will stop by and clear this up for us.

I think it's preposterous to suggest that Bush himself forces people to be wary of Arabs. Most of the world's suicide bombers are Arab, including the 19 Arab men who highjacked those planes on 9/11, and that's why some people are wary. I also point out that Americans are nonetheless tolerant of Arabs living amongst us. As I've said, my corner grocery is run by Yemenis and every semester I have Arab students. My neighborhood has three mosques. How many mosques in your neighborhood, Bruno? All of them go about their lives here just like everyone else.

Zeyad, 24, Morbid Smile, and BT are attending AMERICAN universities, Bruno. That alone should tell you something about American tolerance. They are not attending universities in South Africa.

I think I'll also ask Iraqi Mojo about this and see what he has to say.

*

jeffly

I also point out that Americans are nonetheless tolerant of Arabs living amongst us.

jeez, i wish you could hear yourself like i hear you.

tolerate

1. To allow without prohibiting or opposing; permit.
2. To recognize and respect (the rights, beliefs, or practices of others).
3. To put up with; endure.
4. Medicine. To have tolerance for (a substance or pathogen).

so jeff, when you say you treat all your students w/respect do you mean you tolerate all of them? i don't like one of my neighbors but i tolerate them because i have to live next to them. that is hardly the same as welcoming them, or enjoying their company, or being grateful for what they contribute to my life or my community.

there is so much crap on this thread from the likes of you and cmar. here is another example

The people of Pass Christian, MS weren't appalled that some bureaucrat in Washington DC didn't rush to save them (nor a bureacrat at any level).

our national federal emergency response apparatus is not 'some bureaucrat'. the difference of the functioning of fema in the hurricane in florida before the election and the swiftness of the payouts was night and day. they were actually on the scene before the impact.

Just don't ask the rest of America to pay for it.

why not? the rest of america is paying for iraq. the rest of america is paying for the handouts to drug companies. the rest of america is paying for the 'small business loans' that ended up in the coffers of halliburton and other major corporations. the rest of america is paying for blackwater and dynacorps.

MOST New Orleans citizens recognize that their fates and successes and hardships are not bequeathed to them by the national government.

The quicker Iraqis realize this, the faster reconstruction will begin. Probably Bush's biggest mistake was in thinking that so basic an American presumption as that was instinctive to all people.

what you are refering to IS NOT "a basic american presumption". but it is most definitely an example of the right wing extremist INTENTION that has stripped the coffers and left our economy it shatters since the RADICAL REPUBLICANS HAVE BEEN IN CHARGE. this article was not written in hindsight. from 4/01

Grover Norquist: 'Field Marshal' of the Bush Plan

To Norquist, who loves being called a revolutionary, hardly an agency of government is not worth abolishing, from the Internal Revenue Service and the Food and Drug Administration to the Education Department and the National Endowment for the Arts. "My goal is to cut government in half in twenty-five years," he says, "to get it down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub."

the burden of paying for this war has come out of the pockets of average americans and the profits have landed in the big corporations. a huge shift has taken place, a socialist movement that has supported the rich. a reverse handout so to speak.

State by state, he's planning to launch a campaign to dismantle and privatize state pension plans and their trillions of dollars of public funds held as investments for retirees.

well, isn't that reassuring. and you call this american? i call it theft. this is called privatizing. taking a nations wealth and putting it in the hands of big business. the same big business that has its eyes on iraq.

the same people who have bled america made sure that every single person who implemented the 'iraq plan' were far right republicans.

these aren't my american values. thats for sure!

our federal government has been failing BY DESIGN.

to get it down to the size where we can drown it in the bathtub

bruno, i don't really think of my ceramics as 'producing goods'. i make one of a kind art pieces that sell at a fine arts gallery. if you email Omar he can pass on my contact info or name which a quick search will direct you to my art. i am not good at describing my art. after 20 years of very critical classic forms i sort of went native.

Annie,

Most of what you last posted is so silly on so many levels that I don't intend to be gulled. However, the following statement is silly on only one level, it is untrue in every possible way:

our national federal emergency response apparatus is not 'some bureaucrat'. the difference of the functioning of fema in the hurricane in florida before the election and the swiftness of the payouts was night and day. they were actually on the scene before the impact.

The payout to Katrina refugees (in the form of debit cards) was unprecedented.

Recovering from the damage after Hurricane Andrew took years and years. Since that time, Florida, has been hit by multiple hurricanes when it has been hit. So, no doubt, there are FEMA agents in FL most of the time during those times. Also, the state and local officials in FL understand what they can and can't do in the event of a weather disaster, so they are more likely to interface with FEMA smoothly.

Finally, the people of FL have enough experience with hurricanes that they have reasonable and accurate expectations about what government can and cannot do for them. People in coastal cities clear out in the face of storms. They plan on repairing damage themselves and *hope* that money will come in from who-knows-where to help them. They understand that FEMA's mission was intended to aid state and local governments in helping their citizens, not individual people.

Do I sound like I've lived in Florida? I have.

[Jeffrey] “I think it's preposterous to suggest that Bush himself forces people to be wary of Arabs.”

Course, a little bit of anti-Muslim propaganda can go a long way in shoring up support for an unpopular war …

[j] “Most of the world's suicide bombers are Arab, including the 19 Arab men who highjacked those planes on 9/11, and that's why some people are wary.”

Oh, right now, you may even be right.

But two things : (a) prior to Bush’s War of Terror, the leading suicide exponents were the Hindu Tamil Tigers and (b) the rash of Arab suicide bombing is a reaction to American aggression. It’s like picking a fight with someone and then complaining about the amount of times they are hitting you.

If the US had confined it’s aggression to Al Qaeda, it would have been both justified and probably even cheered on. Instead, it had to export its war to Iraq, to a people that never wished any particular harm to the US (as opposed to the Saudis where most of the hijackers were actually from) and it’s a consequence of this that the US is so vilified in the Arab and Muslim world.

Arabs have much more reason to be wary of Americans than vice versa.

[j] My neighborhood has three mosques. How many mosques in your neighborhood, Bruno?

There’s one a couple of kilometres away.

[j] [on the contradiction / false dilemma] “Listen, maybe 24 will stop by and clear this up for us.”

Fine by me …

Annie, I think I remember your surname from an article somebody posted a long time ago. You wrote an article on pottery techniques, right? If so, I'm taking a look at it now.

My own ceramic work has never encompassed the wheel, unfortunately. But I've had a blast carving from clay, and I'm a fan of the finer grades. You're right, though, there's not much better than working into leather hard clay ;)

"But two things : (a) prior to Bush’s War of Terror, the leading suicide exponents were the Hindu Tamil Tigers and (b) the rash of Arab suicide bombing is a reaction to American aggression. It’s like picking a fight with someone and then complaining about the amount of times they are hitting you."

A) Hindu Tamil tigers have restricted their attacks to Sri Lanka and parts of India. When have they attacked the US?

B) The rash of Arab suicide bombings are not a response to American aggression. American aggression is a response to Arab terrorism, corruption, and despotism.

Really, I'm surprised more irrational hatred is not directed towards Arabs, considering what they have done to Americans. Proves, once again, what a patient and tolerant people Americans are.

bruno,
I was wondering why weren't you part of this conversation. welcome back.
Thanks for trying to explain to many twisted minds what I am saying. You now what I think the case is? It is that they don’t want an Arab, Muslim and Iraqi to be heard. They can’t stand the idea of people like me being balanced and honest in their writing because that will defeat Bush’s, and theirs, attempts to scare people of us and spread the word that all Arabs are terrorists.
People like that Jeffrey are the reason why the Americans are hated in different parts of the world. It is because of their hateful minds and the bad, and wrong, image they convey to the world about the U.S.

jeffrey, and people like you,
I didn’t see you going that hard on Asians,or your media or your government, when one of them killed 35 people just couple weeks ago on your soil!

You all suddenly understood that one Asian doesn’t represent all.

But your hatred and racism towards Arabs make you believe that 19 of them speak for hundreds of millions. And I am sure, if the “terrorist” in the Virginia accident were an Arab, you would definitely add it to your crazy examples of why Arabs should be grateful.

You know, you need help. Seriously.

"But your hatred and racism towards Arabs make you believe that 19 of them speak for hundreds of millions. And I am sure, if the “terrorist” in the Virginia accident were an Arab, you would definitely add it to your crazy examples of why Arabs should be grateful."

Omar, you really should be the PM of Iraq :D

Jeffrey, on your face hahahahahah

The payout to Katrina refugees (in the form of debit cards) was unprecedented.

oh gag me please. they each got a 2000 dollar debit card. you have got to be kidding me right.

Not every flood victim in America gets the Katrina treatment. In 1992, storms wiped out 190 houses on the beach at West Hampton Dunes, home to film stars and celebrity speculators. The federal government paid to completely rebuild the houses, which, hauled in four million cubic feet of sand to restore the tony beaches, and guaranteed the home's safety into the coming decades - after which the "victim's" homes rose in value to an average $2 million each.

the government recently acknowledged what all the experts know now and know then. in the poor areas the levees were not built w/the same reenforcements as the rich areas. it was a failure from the federal level, the army corps of engineers. it was not an act of god that cause the levees to malfunction.

i got links. try reading the newyork times best seller armed madhouse scroll down to '18 missing inches' and read the interview!

Omar, the plans to invade iraq and rearrange the middle east were designed way before 9/11. then there is africa and our geopolitical goals in that neighborhood. the entire economic machine here would cease to function w/out federal funds feeding the war machine. those in power are directly related to channeling those funds. i have posted the movie before, 'why we fight', it is on google video.. states need those federal funds because it is sort of like a 'new deal', socialist.. but instead of doing work that serves the people, it is work thats serves the war machine. we are outsourceing most of our other manufacturing. states compete for these funds as it feeds the industry in their area.

now, everyone knows if you are going to prepare for endless war you have to have a very big bad enemy. you cannot base your entire economic future on a few guys in a plane. much less a few guys in a cave. obviously people are going going to get on board w/that.

we grew up thinking the russians were going to invade us.. bigtime. but now, it is the arabs.

one can read how the name alqueda was invented by th cia to catagorize these rouge bad guys, it was not a name they invented for themselves. now there is a concerted effort by the ptb to connect them all. by naming all this terror from africa all the way like some web thruout the middle east it is the idea of a huge booggieman that is all connected w/the goal of coming after america.

this is a theme we have all heard ad nauseum.

now, nobody wants to think we are off killing people like ourselves?? this is not a good visual. this is why you will never hear how good the schools were in iraq. this is why you won't hear that iraq women could walk around in modern clothes. this is why we had jokes before the war like "why can't we bomb iraq back to the stone ages?"

"because they are already there"

i am sure there are tons of people who believe to this day the schools and hospitals we were going to build in iraq were supposed to be 1000 times more incredible than anything you could get there ever before. this is why as jeff or cmar or whoever it was upthread claim you are in school here, because it is such a much more evolved oportunity than anything presented there. i wouldn't be surprised to find out if there were people in america that thought the average iraqi didn't have running water! or computers or whatever.

so iraq is primitive, uneducated, religeous fanatics, all repressed uneducated women,.. this is just the beginning.

then it is woven into the fabric of islam for you to want to wipe out america.

when i was in highschool we had never heard of the word ecology. now it is part of the national dialogue. do you know what word highschool students had never heard of before 9/11?? islmofascist.

neat trick. take the word fascist (which our governemnt is becoming) and add the religion of islam to it. who thinks of this stuff?

this word has enter the national dialogue.

cmar, i can understand why you would not want to talk about that grover norquist article. or k street, or abramoff, or the DA scandles, or tom delay, or the marianna islands, or casinos, or any of the other scandals that are all connected and going on at this time that the press hardly covers becuase the corporate interests connected to these scandals.

none the less, this drowning the federal government in a bathtub statement of his is very famous, he said it and he said it proudly. you yourself spout this kind of crap about handouts, and citizens sucking off the mommy teet of the government bullcrap.

yet you seem to have no problem w/a company that was barely bankrupted making a killing off federal contracts producing ill fated crappy war products. its not like those federal funds haven't been spent. they just all land in the pockets of war profitteers. that is why the war can't stop. that is why we need terror, that is why we need an enemy.

the number one produced this entire operation need to run on that we can't supply it is what? what does the war machine need to run on. what is the very biggest consumer of oil on the planet? that's right. the DOD. therefore, it makes perfect sense to have our enemy be in the location of the product we need.

you can't get away with it if the people don't think arabs are a threat?

we need an enemy to make a war dummy.

I am sure, if the “terrorist” in the Virginia accident were an Arab,

lol, they tried to make him one. if you google Cho Seung-hui and muslim you come up w/over a million hits! the rightwing nut jobs went crazy right after he murdered those guys trying to prove he was muslim. that all got very quiet when it turned out he was christian.

check this out

and here is the blog of a popular right wing tv pundit..she has scrapped her blog probably because it got too much attention but some of the old comments are up there. it was covered extensively

anyway... not to worry, these guys are all either ignorant freaks (like the utah link i posted upthread) or part of the rascist propaganda apparatus that fuels the neocon machine. sometimes we have a merging of these two catagories, which is what i think we have w/some of the posters here..

24,

Of course, the majority of Arab/Muslims are people simply concerned with raising their children and making a better life for themselves.

There is, however, a sizable minority of Arab/Muslims who kill in the name of Allah for their own ends:

New York, Bali, Madrid, and London.

Who were the suicide-bombers?

And Baghdad.

Who are the suicide-bombers?

Calling me a racist is stupid. You don't know anything about me and my family, do you? Let me repeat again. My family is more mixed with people from all over the world than your family will ever be. We have a tradition of tolerance here that, believe me, has come with lots of struggle.

Where do you live, 24? Look around you. What do you see? People from all continents, right?

BT, what is the student population like at St. Michael's?

Why is the best university in Egypt the American Universtiy of Cairo (AUC)?

Why is the best university in Lebanon the American University of Beirut (AUB)?

Both of those schools promote American educational standards and American values. Tolerance of differing views is one of those values. Freedom of speech protected by law is another, one that both you and BT have for the first time in your lives.

Am I wrong about this?

And 24, if you really want to have a serious discussion, you'll have to drop the name-calling. Simpy barking that I'm filled with hatred does nothing to advance your argument.

For the record, do you at least admit that you were mistaken about the election-result numbers for Kerry and Bush (2004) in Orleans Parish?

*

Bruno wrote:

A single well-meaning person can do far more good far quicker than a committee of well-meaning people. History has proven this. Of course, history has also proven that the downsides of a dictatorship are very bad indeed, and that a bad democracy is infinitely better than a bad dictatorship. It’s the downsides of both methods of government that make democracy come out the winner, not the upsides.

Even Bruno occasionally writes something with which I cannot argue. This is one of those times.

*

oh my, just a touch off topic but the british press has just written a piece confirming what we all know

cheney is the mastermind behind the war.

everybody knows bush was just a figurehead they put in place because he was malleable and stupid enough to sit in the back seat of his own presidency. and everyone knows nobody would vote for cheney becasue he looks evil and is evil. he is onlt loved by the far right sadists (of which we have some on this thread).

Describing the task of dealing with the US administration as a "multi-dimensional jigsaw puzzle," Mr Hoon accepted that Britain had greatly underestimated the influence of the neo-con vice-president Mr Cheney and had lacked a comparable figure able to engage him regularly over the war.

there's more. its a good read i recommend

and anyone foolish enough to think cheney has any interest in protecting america has got rocks in his brains.

sorry for the OT, i just got excited that someone actually wrote it. cheneyco and his sidekicks run the show. i read it first on raw story. Former British defense secretary claims Cheney called shots in Iraq

no msm in the states would have the balls to print that.

Bruno, welcome back! Did you have a nice weekend trip?

I too find it extremely ironic and telling that the US would spend around 500 billion dollars to invade Iraq to “help” Iraqis out of sheer altruism, when it won’t even spend a fraction of that money to help its own people. I find it very suspicious that America says it wants to help Iraqis (instead of helping Americans) . . .

The government has spent $62 billion or about $200,000 per person for New Orleans victims. Bruno, thats one third of your country's entire GDP! While the the U.S. has "waisted" $500 billion on Iraq, it was still spent mostly on U.S. soldiers, their equipment and their health care. If you divide that out that by the 2 million soldiers that have served in Iraq that works out to about $250,000 per soldier. The per capita spending is about the same. Bruno, rather than lecture us how we should spend our money, please spend that energy on your country's own domestic problems. Please help the people of your townships which are sadly still soaked in poverty. They need your help. We do not.

I have told you many times, bruno. We are not helping Iraq just out of altruism. Democracies don't go to war with each other and they don't support terrorism against the U.S. There is plenty of self-interest here. Its win-win. That's why you hate it so much. Iraqis and Americans both winning - your worst nightmare. You're more a lose-lose kind of chap.

The truth is that the Hussein invasion of Kuwait could have EASILY been defeated WITHOUT blasting Iraqi civilian targets, yet the US did it anyway, as a means to punish ordinary Iraqis and to make them pay for Hussein’s excesses. -bruno

Glad you such a fcuking expert on how to defeat the world's fourth largest army in 44 days. The ITM brothers just wrote about how Saddam placed Howitzers in the middle of populated civilian areas during the first Gulf war that fired at Coalition planes. Could that maybe be how infrastructure was damaged? Since you are such a great military strategist could you please tell us how the hell we win this war right now so we can leave? No. What's that? You say just leave without winning? Without a safe democracy? Ug, that's the same advise you gave already! I want to know how to leave without abandoning the Iraqis to their certain deaths. But you don't know how to do that, do you bruno? Well we do - not give up.

Just like Ghaddaffi is no longer a threat to the world and actually just a misunderstood, OK-guy … after he kowtowed to the US, right? Interesting to note how US foreign policy works. -bruno

You mean how like when we invaded Iraq within months Ghaddaffi voluntarily gave up his WMD program out of fear that he was next? And now that the U.S. Congress pushed for early withdrawal (thanks for the 'help' bruno!) he realized that there nothing to worry about any more? Oh Ghaddaffi! All these years you could have been a belligerent sponsor of international terrorism and instead you where just a contained dictator! Well, better get back up to speed!

That's what you want, right bruno? For contained dictators to not worry anymore? For them to get more belligerent toward the U.S.? You want all the dictators of the world to sleep nice and cozy in their big beds while the all the people of the free and democratic world, all 2 BILLION of them, stay awake in terror from the next terrorist WMD attack while the other 3 BILLION remain enslaved, tortured and lied to - and also in terror - from their own governments!

Oh, for crying out loud! Ever think of using your ego as an anchor for supertankers, Jeffrey? -bruno
That's the funniest thing I heard you say!

If I well recall, it was Plato that said that. There’s a lot of truth to that statement. A single well-meaning person can do far more good far quicker than a committee of well-meaning people. History has proven this. Of course, history has also proven that the downsides of a dictatorship are very bad indeed, and that a bad democracy is infinitely better than a bad dictatorship. It’s the downsides of both methods of government that make democracy come out the winner, not the upsides. -bruno
And this is the smartest thing I heard you say!

And 24, if you really want to have a serious discussion, you'll have to drop the name-calling.

oh pleeease. you aren't the instructor here. he can do whatever he wants, it is his blog. how can anyone have a serious discussion w/someone who denies there is propaganda trumping up an arab threat. we don't live in boxes.

if you don't feel your view is appreciated here go take your blathering somewhere it is. otherwise try absorbing some of that criticism.

there is a difference between what america has a tradition of and what some of us aspire to be and the manipulation of society thru programing. go watch the powerful drama, 'the power of nightmares' . i seriously recommend this bbc series. the first 5 minutes tells you what it is about.(also on google video).

Bruno,

Oh, for crying out loud! Ever think of using your ego as an anchor for supertankers, Jeffrey?

Heh heh heh. I agree with Kryptonite. That is an excellent zinger!

*

News from C-SPAN:
The veto override was defeated in the U.S. House of Representatives! The troops will not be withdrawn for now.

Annie,

Don't worry about being off-topic. No one reads your comments anyway.

Har har har.

In New York, I believe, it's called joking on the square.

*

24Steps,

But your hatred and racism towards Arabs make you believe that 19 of them speak for hundreds of millions...if the “terrorist” in the Virginia accident were an Arab, you would definitely add it to your crazy examples of why Arabs should be grateful.

This is paranoia. Jeffrey did not say that 19 Arabs speak for hundreds of millions. He said just the opposite. He said that Americans can differentiate between the normal Arabs and those that attacked the WTC in 1993 and in 2001 and the US embassy in Africa and who blow themselves up on the streets of Iraq and mosques of Iraq and in weddings in Jordan and in pizza parlors Jerusalem, and those who execute old men in wheelchairs on cruise ships and NGO workers in Fallujeh. Americans don't think all Arabs or Muslims consider people who do that to be "martyrs" (secular or religious) or to be working for a worthy cause. They can differentiate between normal Arabs and those who made "Osama" the most popular name for baby boys in the Middle East after 9-11. And they can differentiate from Arabs in London, Paris, and Bethlehem who partied on the eve of 9-11. They can even differentiate from Arab Americans of CAIR who refused to condemn the 9-11 attacks for 5 months afterwards, and screwy imams in Minnesota who try to undermine airport security and by acting crazy on planes and then suing the airlines for "persecuting" them.

They can even look past irrational statements from Arabs (and Muslims generally) that suggest the US government is trying to get Americans to persecute them while simultaneously admitting that no is doing that.

I don't recall Jeffrey asking you to be grateful for all that. It's just the way it is.

But please don't ask the US government to pretend there are not a large number of Islamofacists -not Arabs- who travel long distances and endure great hardships to kill anyone with USA on their passport because they think God and/or their heritage implores them to. Nor that there are many more who nod in agreement when they do. In that case, you ask too much. The executive branch is only doing the job Americans want them to do, and if this Republican administration fails to do it and another attack happens, even the most dreamy-eyed Liberal (actually especially those) will never let them live it down and many Arabs around the world will say we brought it on ourselves for voting for Bush.

For the record and for all of you guys out there:
I wasn’t mistaken when I said that New Orleans people voted overwhelmingly for Bush. I was making a point that they shouldn’t have voted for him at all, given how poorly he treated their city. Also, even if only 1000 people voted for him, I would have said the word overwhelmingly. Because, to me, one person voting for him from NO means that they didn’t get the lesson.

Here you go. I hope now you know that I wasn’t mistaking or misinformed when I said that sentence. I mean it. I do.
And by the way, I wrote all the above before in the comment section. You should have read it, jeffrey. Plus, if you keep thinking and saying that the terrorists and car bombers are Arabs, then you are a racist. I said it and I mean it.

jeffrey,
For your info, who is terrorizing my people in addition to the terrorists? It’s your government. Who directed missiles on civilian neighborhoods in 1991, 1998 and 2003? It is your government. Who imposed sanctions on my people for 13 years, which led to killing 500,000 children without mentioning the adults [UN numbers]? It was your government and the European Union.

Why don’t you call them terrorist? Isn’t that racist? Doesn’t that mean that, to you, killing Iraqis is ok, but killing Americans is not?
That’s racism and I will not tolerate it.

24,

I wasn’t mistaken when I said that New Orleans people voted overwhelmingly for Bush. I was making a point that they shouldn’t have voted for him at all, given how poorly he treated their city. Also, even if only 1000 people voted for him, I would have said the word overwhelmingly. Because, to me, one person voting for him from NO means that they didn’t get the lesson.

This is beyond belief.

If a thousand people voted for Bush, then you feel justified in claiming that the entire Orleans Parish voted "overwhelmingly" for Bush?! My God, I have never in my seventeen years of teaching read anything more absurd.

It would have been easier just to admit your mistake, instead you "just keep digging," to use the vernacular.

*

That’s because you only read what the federal government publishes for people like you. Go read what the word "overwhelming" means. It means the person using it is surprised. That you will not find in your books!

Why do I feel like I am wasting my time on you? Oh, because I am! you are way beyond help. Stay in your own bubble and don't open to he rest of the world. That will not hurt me.

24,

I have to go teach my evening classes now, but you can be sure I'll respond when I get home later tonight.

A racist believes that ethnic groups have essential biological differences. I DO NOT believe this. I believe that ethnicity is a social construct. Neither Arabs nor Japanese, for example, are in any way essentially different biologically than any other social group.

You are flinging around the word "racist" as a cheap rhetorcial ploy. If you want to have a serious discussion, you need to drop it.

I have no time right now (subway awaits), but I'll be back later to follow up this opening in our debate.

*

There is no debate. I do believe that if you take one bad thing that is done by a very very small number of criminals who happen to be Arabs or Muslims and blame the rest of us for their wrong doings and want me to feel grateful for not being killed or attacked in the US because you are a “tolerant” country, and on the other hand when an Asian kills in cold blood 35 American students in less than three hours and you suddenly become mute, that is racism. It is not something I said at one point and then will regret. There is no debate because what I said above is what I believe. And you obviously don’t believe that Asians are terrorists or at least should be blamed for what the criminal Asian did in Virginia Tech because you believe it was one wrong doing done by one man. But you still think and keep repeating that all Arabs and Muslims should be blamed for what 19 criminals did, or be happy for not being killed or deported from the US. Call it what you want, in my dictionary it is called racism. End of discussion.

I took your advice and looked up overwhelmingly. The definition I think clears up the confusion.

overwhelming: adj. very great in amount.

Omar is technically using the word correctly, however, as the dictionary example shows, it is a common english idiom to pair overwhelming with the word 'majority' especially when discussing elections results.

e.g. "The Senator was elected by an overwhelming majority of voters."

Sometime however, people leave this off and simply say:

The Senator received overwhelming support from his district.

which would still implicitly refer to a majority. So I think you are both right, fair enough?

We should using our words to help stop the fighting in Iraq!
So can we please stop fighting about words?

By the way, why would the 2004 election results have been affected by a 2005 Hurricane?

For your info, who is terrorizing my people in addition to the terrorists?

Oh boy! Here we go! As soon as certain people among "your people" stop trying to drag "your nation" back into a Ba'athist or Islamic paradise, there will be no more "terrorizing" going on on the part of the US. As Allawi said to the citizens of Fallujeh in 2004, "If you show them your weapons they will never leave. Let them do finish their jobs so they can go home." They didn't listen.

(Say why aren't those people in the ninth ward upset about the repair of that levy? Is the Corp of Engineers trying to put them in a zoo or something?)

It’s your government. Who directed missiles on civilian neighborhoods in 1991, 1998 and 2003?

Because Saddam placed military installations there. I know you didn't vote for Saddam, but neither did Bush 41, Clinton, or Dubya. Tough beans.

It is your government. Who imposed sanctions on my people for 13 years, which led to killing 500,000 children without mentioning the adults [UN numbers]?

And then Dubya invaded Iraq so those sanctions could be removed. Aren't you "grateful"? Your liberal Democrat friends at a certain Washington newspaper, wanted them left in place to keep Saddam "in a box". I guess they are racists who hate "average Iraqis".

Why don’t you call them terrorist? Isn’t that racist? Doesn’t that mean that, to you, killing Iraqis is ok, but killing Americans is not?

The US fought two hot wars and one long cold war with a rogue tyrant regime. I'm really sorry that some of our friends in Iraq got in the middle of it. Same thing happened to our friends when we liberated France and Italy and Germany. Certain MidEasterners started a war with a free country and thought God would love them for it. Certain tyrannies let those people use their countries as hideouts. Certain tyrannies used money they stole from their fellow citizens to finance those people (and they still are).

These are the same people are doing the same thing against the free country of Iraq to make it less free.

Stop typing for a minute and just listen to yourself, 24.

The executive branch is only doing the job Americans want them to do,

delusional

A racist believes that ethnic groups have essential biological differences.

what an idiot you are. this is not the definition of racist. obviously different races do have essential biological differences.

I believe that ethnicity is a social construct.

well you are wrong.. ones ethnicity is genetic having to do w/one's ancestry. obviously if you are raised w/the rest of your genetic family or similiar genetic construct you may share the same social construct, but i for example could be raised completely in an arab culture and that would still never allow me to share the same ethnic background.

freak alert.

Omar, i could be wrong, but i believe while you may find it overwhelming that anyone would vote for bush in new orleans (and i totally agree) the term overwhelmingly implies it must overwhelm something else.. in this case kerry. so in that sense the voters did not overwhelmingly vote for bush. but none the less, it is overwhelming even one did.

i am not a scientist. when i say biological i mean things like skin color and hair and all that. something in your dna.

a racist is someone who asserts assumes or attributes moral or mental characteristics to one race as more likely than another.

Kryptonite said:

"Really, I'm surprised more irrational hatred is not directed towards Arabs, considering what they have done to Americans. Proves, once again, what a patient and tolerant people Americans are."

Now, reverse this...after five years off pounding the living crap out of Iraqi Arabs, preceded by ten years of reprehensible sanctions against same, preceded by decades of an outrageous American tilt towards Israel and a perverse desire to 'punish' Palestinian Arabs, I would contend that is surprising the Arab people haven't lashed out more, considering all we have done to them (not to mention to their neighbours, the Aryan Iranians). Proves, once again, what a patient and tolerant people they are.

the majority of pedophiles in the US are overwhelmingly white males. same w/the serial killers.

some might rationalize we have all demonstrated an incredible amount of patience towards white males.

i know i have.

while we are on the subject of white males, i happen to be related to a few of them, they all drive me nuts. in fact, most of the men i know are a little off kilter.

i think most of the women i know would tend to agree w/me.

also, i have the opportunity to be exposed to quite a few males in the age range of 18 to 22 of several different races. they are all kind of odd. they started getting odd at around the age of 14 or so.

maybe it is genetic?

i think men are the problem.

;)

Hey K,
I was working on a lady today that owns a house in the French Quarter. I told her about the lies being told on this board about all this money being spent in NOLA. She asked me to ask you when her $200,000 is going to arrive. lol! Join the world of reality. On today's morning news, the president of St. Bernard Parish was on to update recovery efforts of his parish. A little background on St. Bernard. It is a mostly white working and middle class neighborhood. They are on the SE side of the infamous lower 9th ward. It was hit just as badly as the lower 9; it just doesn't get the same camera time. Out of over 20,000 homes, 4 were left livable after the storm. The Canadian mounties were the first rescuers to reach St. Bernard citizens, 4 days after the storm. In his report, the parish president said that they are going to illegally repair areas of the levee systems owned and built by the federal government because they are so terribly sub-standard and the fix is not that difficult. The Corps of Engineers have told them they will be arrested if they touch the levees. Also a new garbage contract has been signed. The owner is a local because no national companies would bid on it. The number of people signing up for service has sky rocketed, meaning that the people of St. Bernard are moving back. Lastly he reported that their next push would be to get some parks in shape for the summer so children have a place to play. THIS IS AMERICA! In the bill Mr, Bush vetoed was money for continued flood protection for the New Orleans area, including St. Bernard. It seems keeping troops in a country that does not want us there is more important to this US president than the safety of his own citizens. One day in our news.

I forgot to add this article from our paper this Sunday. It is the story of the lady that almost single handedly re-built the St. Bernard Parish school system. These people are heroes but some Americans don't seem to think they are worth their time or effort.
http://blog.nola.com/times-picayune/2007/04/st_bernard_schools_boss_doris.html

that is excellent news about people moving back anon! sounds like NO has been left to sink or swim.

In the bill Mr, Bush vetoed was money for continued flood protection for the New Orleans area, including St. Bernard.

haven't they been trying to get those levees fixed for years? heavens. i am really glad you are posting here. it is excellent to hear a voice from someone who is actually there.

....

once again i find myself possibly wrong. i found out by a process of ethnogenesis i could change my ethnic background.. eventually, or something. if i moved somewhere (thru invasion or migration) after some generations i could start a new ethnic background. wiki informs me
An ethnic group or ethnicity is a population of human beings whose members identify with each other, usually on the basis of a presumed common genealogy or ancestry.

then it goes on to say they are often united by common cultural traits.(not a necessity)

there is something called active ethnogenesis.

It can occur actively, as persons deliberately and directly 'engineer' separate identities in order to attempt to solve a political problem - the preservation or imposition of certain cultural values, power relations, etc.

so i could move to another country and 'become' ethnically distinct. but i don't know if it is possible to ditch your ex ethnic background.

sorry again for being off topic.

wow, what a great story about Ms. Voitier! 3,800 kids is a lot of kids! that is fantastic.

let us all pray we get a different kind of administration next time who will fork over the kind of money required to give NO the kind of help it needs and get those levees fixed. what is the point of paying taxes if your government can't pull thru for you in a national emergency??

what kind of country would we be w/out new orleans. there is no place in the world w/a culture even remotely like it.

Dear Anonymous New Orleans resident,

I am very sad for what happen to your beautiful city. I wish I had visited it before it was destroyed. I am sure it will someday be rebuilt and I plan on visiting soon. I quite literally cried when I saw the pictures of what had happened there - and I am a man in my thirties.

I want to tell you about my reality.

I lived in Africa for a while when I was boy and I saw poverty that no American who has not ever traveled outside of the U.S. has ever seen. This country was poorer than Iraq so even Omar may not fully understand. It is very difficult to explain to Americans because the disparity here in America gives us the illusion that the the poor here are, well very poor. Well even the poorest, homeless, and destitute are still better off financially than almost all of the people I met there, except for the local dictator and his cronies of course.

Here in the U.S. I grew up in a poor neighborhood in Los Angeles. I did not move to a "mostly white working and middle class neighborhood" until I was in high school. Yes, I saw a great difference between these two, but it was absolutely nothing compared to the difference I saw between our great Democracy and that deprived dictatorship. I wish every American would see what I saw. I really do. It changed my whole world view.

To me, human beings are human beings no matter where they live, what race they are or what nation they come from. America, despite her problems, is the most wealthy nation on Earth! I believe that we need to help our brothers and sisters around the world as best we can using any means necessary to secure Freedom and Democracy for the human race. We are a blessed country, even in times of tragedy. We cannot let our internal problems stop us from helping our fellow human beings all over this world. This is not altruism because these countries will help us out in our future in return. Omar is already helping out the citizens of your city and we are not even finished helping his country.

There are 3 BILLION human beings around the world who are enslaved by their own governments. They cannot vote, they cannot speak their mind, and they are not allowed to build a better life for their families. THOUSANDS of these people in these countries are murdered by their own governments EVERYDAY and there is nothing they can do about it. But there is something we can do about it. We can help them, one nation at a time. We have the power. We have the ability. We have the wealth. We have the resources. We can do this even while helping our own. It is immoral to do otherwise. All we need is the will.

I am sorry you have not received your $200,000 check but I never claimed that you would be handed money. In fact, only about half the people who requested assistance got anything. The money is still there however. My family's contribution in taxes was $400 for the Katrina victims, so I was just wondering, how much do you want? When will you be happy? Please ask your friend how much we should all pay? $1000? $2000? $5000? I want to help so please just tell us what you want the government to spend.

Even though, as a scientist, I know it is dangerous to repopulate New Orleans, I still want the city to be rebuilt. I want America to be strong inside as well as out.

We can do both!

Leaving our citizens out to dry is a shame. But I want the Iraq to be free too. And leaving our troops and the Iraqis out to dry would be a capital shame!

Anonymous from NO, how come you guys re-elected Nagin?

24 –

Shukran for your kind words. I appreciate them, as I appreciate the forum you have provided for us all to discuss our views.



[k] “The government has spent $62 billion or about $200,000 per person for New Orleans victims.”

Yet, somehow, the city is still in disarray and people are still living in poverty. The US also spent a great deal of its own money (and Iraqi money) on rebuilding in Iraq … except for that the country is worse off than before. Strange, isn’t it, that these huge figures are tossed about, yet on the ground, nothing happens?

[k] “Bruno, rather than lecture us how we should spend our money, please spend that energy on your country's own domestic problems.”

In other words, why don’t I keep my big nose out of American affairs? Gee, well, I would simply love to do so, but the fact of the matter is, if the big-nosed Americans stick their noses into our (and everybody else’s) affairs, then I’m not going to shut up about yours. Just the other day the arrogant Yank ambassador to SA was going on about how SA’s voting at the UN was worrying and anti-democratic and that we should mend our ways. Coming from the US sponsors of countless dictatorships that’s pretty rich.

[k] “Democracies don't go to war with each other”

That’s simply a lie, as I have already pointed out to you HERE:

https://www2.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=15211548&postID=9144849453521189038

… where you were simply unable to refute the basic truth of the matter.

Democracies CAN and DO go to war with each other, since national interests are still national interests. The fact is, the US itself has subverted or tried to subvert numerous democracies in order to promote its own national interests, and, indeed, continues to do so. Insisting that democracies are automatically aligned is simply wrong. Take Venezuela and the USA, for example.

Your blanket statement is redolent of the stench of the Neocons, who like to theorise a lot, but when faced with the reality of their actions (as in Iraq) they trip over each other in the haste to distance themselves from the same disaster they helped instigate.

[k] “Glad you such a fcuking expert on how to defeat the world's fourth largest army in 44 days.”

Unfortunately for you, I am clued up in what wins wars, and blowing up civilian infrastructure is completely useless as a war-winning tactic. You, on the other hand, don’t have a great deal of knowledge on military tactics or materiel, as you prove shortly:

[k] “Saddam placed Howitzers in the middle of populated civilian areas during the first Gulf war that fired at Coalition planes.”

Evidently you are unaware that howitzers are a ground to ground artillery system and have nothing to do with anti-aircraft roles. Evidently you are unaware that even if this placement is true, the fact of the matter is that Coalition forces never came within range of such systems in 1991, making their destruction a moot point.

However, that’s not the point.

The point is that 24 is right, that I am right, when we say that the damage to the Iraqi infrastructure was both avoidable and deliberately done.

This is merely one of many sites that document the nature of the US onslaught on the Iraqi population in general in 1991:

http://cesr.org/node/21?PHPSESSID=854ea31af126e8c13e068bbda611c9cc

An extract:

“While devastating to the civilian population, the attacks against electricity and water in 1991 played little role in defeating the Iraqi army. [...] The human costs of disabling Iraq’s civilian infrastructure were known in advance to the Pentagon. Partially declassified Defense Intelligence Agency assessments from January to March 1991 accurately predict the onset of a public health crisis in Iraq.28 One document, entitled “Disease Outbreaks in Iraq,” reports that:

"Conditions are favorable for communicable disease outbreaks, particularly in major urban areas affected by coalition bombing… Infectious disease prevalence in major Iraqi urban areas targeted by coalition bombing (Baghdad, Basrah) undoubtedly has increased since the beginning of Desert Storm… Current public health problems are attributable to the reduction of normal preventive medicine, waste disposal, water purification and distribution, electricity, and the decreased ability to control disease outbreaks."

By attacking infrastructure targets without direct military value, the US intended to pressure the Iraqi leadership by imposing widespread suffering on the civilian population. A US Air force planner stated that “we wanted to let people know, ‘we’re not going to tolerate Saddam Hussein or his regime. Fix that and we’ll fix your electricity.” //end excerpt

[k] “Since you are such a great military strategist could you please tell us how the hell we win this war right now so we can leave?”

You really want to know how to “win”?

(Can you handle the answer, I have to wonder?)

The way to “win” is to kill all the Iraqis. The truth is as simple and as horrible as that.

The reality of the situation is that you HAVE NO FRIENDS in Iraq. (Maybe the Kurds, while you’re keeping the Turks off their backs) The reality is that the friends you DO have are only your friends for as long as their enemies are powerful. Don’t kid yourself. If the “Sunni” Iraqis were wiped out, the “Shiite” Iraqis would pick up arms in a heartbeat and start fighting you, and vice versa.

Hallucinations such as the “Anbar Salvation Council” are pretty much temporary allies until Al Qaeda is routed. Then, it’s back to the battlefield against the US. Even soldiers within the IA / IP are on record as saying that if they weren’t in these forces, they would be fighting against the US. The people that are filling the ranks of the new formations in Anbar are composed of the SAME people that were planting IED’s and mortaring you until a few months ago. (Are you people REALLY naïve enough to think that they’ve become fledgling Neocons?) They’re in for some R&R, some training, and before long you will be facing them again.

So, since you’re NOT about to drop nukes on the Iraqis (even though the nuttier US fringe elements are actively rooting for such an eventuality) I’d say that yes, it WOULD be better to leave now and cut your losses.

[bruno] "Just like Ghaddaffi is no longer a threat to the world and actually just a misunderstood, OK-guy … after he kowtowed to the US, right?"
[k] "You mean how like when we invaded Iraq within months Ghaddaffi voluntarily gave up his WMD program out of fear that he was next?"

That’s exactly the incident I’m talking about. And I see you’ve completely missed the point, as I knew you would. The point is not that he gave up his (pathetic) WMD program. The point is that once Ghaddaffi aligned himself with the US, he was no longer a dangerous dictator to be persecuted. The point is the filthy hypocrisy that runs rampant through US foreign policy, where dictators are OK, so long as they are YOUR dictators. Even Saddam was not so bad, when he was your S.O.B.


[k] “You want all the dictators of the world to sleep nice and cozy in their big beds”

Where did I ever say that? No, I don’t think so. On the other hand, you might want to take the matter up with the people running US foreign policy.

I hear they send billions of dollars every year to the dictator of Egypt, Mubarak, in order to keep him in power.

I hear they restored the dictator of Kuwait to power.

I hear they supply the dictator of Saudi Arabia with the latest American weapons (MLRS, Abrams, Eagle, Raptor) in order to keep him safe.

And so forth and so on.

That’s quite some position you’ve elected to defend, K.

Let me be quite clear on my ideological position.

I believe that democracy is generally superior to dictatorship due to the reasons outlined roughly in my previous statement on the matter. I also do not believe in the export of an ideology by violence. There are other ways to change societies, by example and by peaceful means being superior. (The Iraq war is a prime example of the failure of the export of an ideology) I furthermore trust least of all the USA as the tool of “democratising” a country, since history has taught us that the US is driven by Americentric agendas, and not necessarily ideological purity. The truth is the US deals as easily with dictators as with democracies, the prime consideration being the bottom line and not the ideological position of the partner. This is blatant hypocrisy if one considers the supposed “pro-democracy” agenda the US uses as a very shabby cloak to mask its deeds.

The real point to me is not to change dictatorships into democracies.

It is to preserve those democracies that already exist from becoming dictatorships.

It is to lead by example and not by force.

[annie] "maybe it is genetic? i think men are the problem. ;)"

:)

Yeah, sometimes we can be asses.

(I blame my mom, ho ho ho ;) )

Speaking of feminists, here's something that should be straight up your alley, Annie:

http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/51150/

(How to convert a democracy into a dictatorship in 10 easy steps, by Naomi Wolf)

Check out Zeyad's today over here:

http://www.haloscan.com/comments/zeyad/1809052078843946719/?a=12623#354677

I found a bunch of interesting news and analysis today.

Correction: the KSA did not buy the f22.

Bruno..It is to preserve those democracies that already exist from becoming dictatorships.

speaking of which. i would like to turn your attention to another
right wing nut job who has a editorial today in the wall street journal promoting dictatorship.

"Law does not apply" -- that is Mansfield's belief, and the belief of the Bush movement. I didn't think it was possible, but Mansfield, with today's article in The Wall St. Journal, actually goes even further in advocating pure lawlessness and tyranny than he did in that remarkable Weekly Standard screed. He begins by describing "the debate between the strong executive and its adversary, the rule of law." He then says: "In some circumstances I could see myself defending the rule of law," but "the rule of law has two defects, each of which suggests the need for one-man rule."


"In quiet times the rule of law will come to the fore, and the executive can be weak. In stormy times, the rule of law may seem to require the prudence and force that law, or present law, cannot supply, and the executive must be strong."

"A free government should show its respect for freedom even when it has to take it away."

This is why he is published in The Weekly Standard and The Wall St. Journal -- the two most influential organs for so-called "conservative" political thought. All sorts of the most political influential people in our country -- from Dick Cheney to Richard Posner to John Yoo and The Weekly Standard -- believe and have argued for exactly this vision of government. They literally do not believe in our constitutional framework and our most defining political values. They have declared a literally endless War which, they claim, not only justifies but compels the vesting of unlimited power in the President -- "unlimited" by Congress, the courts, American public opinion and the rule of law.

the neocons, followers of the philosopher leo strauss , do not promote democracy. quite the opposite. the bbc video i posted earlier explains strauss's thinking.

k..so I was just wondering, how much do you want? When will you be happy?

perhaps if you read anons link, or any variety of news from NO, you would no although the money has been collected from the tax payers, most of it has not been delivered.

Having staved off financial collapse, Voitier assumed the federal government would send recovery experts and truckloads of cash to help rebuild the school system. Instead, she found herself in a seemingly endless series of meetings to discuss FEMA rules and regulations.

"We figured the cavalry was coming, but that didn't happen,"

....

While it may have taken longer than anyone would have wanted to get federal recovery money flowing to St. Bernard schools, FEMA spokesman Andrew Thomas said the agency has obligated $244.6 million to rebuild the school system.

"In order to get them every penny they had coming, FEMA has a process and steps that we have to go through,"

also k, apparently you do not read the links i direct to you. from the last thread 12:43 PM

k, .....

we are rules by criminals and liars, we have a compliant press, we have think tanks that dictate the narrative in which to consider the implications of what is going on.

i ask you. how is new orleans? where are the terrorists there preventing the reconstruction?

Most Katrina Aid From Overseas Went Unclaimed

read that article and weep. did it ever occur to you every single professional in the area of natural disasters knew that new orleans was our most predictable, most threatening. it is an important port in a strategic location.

all the same contractors hired to 'reconstruct' iraq are doing the same job in new orleans. i wonder what would happen to that place if that area got turned into one huge privatized port belonging to halliburton?

don't even talk to me about what out 'plans ' for iraq are. lets take a look at what we are doing to iraq. not what they say they are going to do.

there are many the world over who believe the failure of iraq was doomed by design, i happen to be one of them. i am not alone by any stretch if the imagination. i have no interests in your pipe dreams about what we are going to do for iraqis. no interests what so ever.

that is from the last thread. since you obviously didn't read the article or seem unable to grasp what is going on there i will cite from the washington post article

Allies offered $854 million in cash and in oil that was to be sold for cash. But only $40 million has been used so far for disaster victims or reconstruction, according to U.S. officials and contractors. Most of the aid went uncollected, including $400 million worth of oil. Some offers were withdrawn or redirected to private groups such as the Red Cross. The rest has been delayed by red tape and bureaucratic limits on how it can be spent.

In addition, valuable supplies and services -- such as cellphone systems, medicine and cruise ships -- were delayed or declined because the government could not handle them. In some cases, supplies were wasted.

The struggle to apply foreign aid in the aftermath of the hurricane, which has cost U.S. taxpayers more than $125 billion so far, is another reminder of the federal government's difficulty leading the recovery. Reports of government waste and delays or denials of assistance have surfaced repeatedly since hurricanes Katrina and Rita struck in 2005.

just because the government collected your money DOES NOT MEAN IT GOT DELIVERED, OR WAS SPENT WISELY. i have also read several accounts of the way the red cross (i believe run by the republican sen elizabeth dole) 'distributed' only a small portion of the funds (this is who i stupidly donated to), and those delivered were thru church organizations. in other words, partisan distribution.

government waste and contractor fraud is rampant thru out the government. but somebody is getting very very rich....

from defensetech (scroll)

What began as an ambitious but mostly overlooked scheme to modernize the Coast Guard’s entire fleet of ships and aircraft over a 20-year period has, just five years after conception, turned into one of the most troubled and criticized U.S. military programs.

The $24-billion Deepwater initiative was launched in 2002 with a contract naming Integrated Coast Guard Systems -- a partnership between electronics maker Lockheed Martin and shipbuilder Northrop Grumman -- the “lead systems integrator” for the program, meaning the firms, rather than the Coast Guard, would be responsible for selecting subcontractors to handle the aircraft, electronics and shipbuilding work.

i suggest reading the entire report.

lockheed martin went from practically bankrupt to a billions in profit company. do you know how many ties the cheneys have to lockheed???

?

do not ask a resident 'how much do you want? ask our government to cough up the dough.

...

after reviewing upthread i realized i posted earlier without reading the all the proceeding posts,(or perhaps they appeared as i was posting) excuse me for carrying on after There is no debate..End of discussion. from Omar's excellent post .

hi bruno! we must be on the same wavelength today... i was posting during your last post.. i will read the article's.

btw, hey, about those ceramic articles..yes that is probably me, buy you know how old work is.. sometimes not quite up to par.

bruno, your cole link @ zayed's is interesting, partly because it is cole who is finally saying what many of us have all known for a long time

Omar, here is a MUST READ article about katrina and blackwater

if you want to see where millions upon millions of dollars are going...cofer black, the ceo and fundamentalist christian...

Tens of thousands of Hurricane Katrina victims remain without homes. The environment is devastated. People are disenfranchised. Financial resources, desperate residents are told, are scarce. But at least New Orleans has a Wal-Mart parking lot serving as a FEMA Disaster Recovery Center with perhaps the tightest security of any parking lot in the world. That's thanks to the more than $30 million Washington has shelled out to the Blackwater USA security firm since its men deployed after Katrina hit. Under contract with the Department of Homeland Security's (DHS) Federal Protective Service, Blackwater's men are ostensibly protecting federal reconstruction projects for FEMA. Documents show that the government paid Blackwater $950 a day for each of its guards in the area. Interviewed by The Nation last September, several of the company's guards stationed in New Orleans said they were being paid $350 a day. That would have left Blackwater with $600 per man, per day to cover lodging, ammo, other overhead--and profits.

....Hiring Blackwater, says Schakowsky, "may be legal, but it is not a good deal for taxpayers and Gulf region residents in particular." Blackwater's sweetheart deals, both domestic and international, are representative of how business has been done under Bush. They are a troubling indicator of a trend toward less accountability and transparency and greater privatization of critical government functions. It's time that more members of Congress ask tough questions about Blackwater and its rapid, profitable rise.

i recommend the whole piece. this was written last year, likely they have been awarded even more katrina contracts since then. and we wonder where the money is going?????

meanwhile the US inspector general for Iraq the one who wrote the report about
" seven of eight rebuilding projects that costing about $150 million had previously been declared successes, were now in disrepair or had been abandoned."

they are investigating him. that is what happens when anyone in the kings government doesn't compliment the king, they get ousted..although i would have to agree, that report might have come in handy a few years ago

24,

Take a deep breath.

Listen to me.

This morning, on my way to Dunkin' Donuts for a coffee, I passed a Muslim woman pushing a stroller. She was covered from head to foot in a her religiously-sanctioned covering. I could only see her eyes. I may find it a little peculiar (due to the culture I grew up in) but in no way do I hate her. She lives here in Astoria just like the rest of us. We care about our families and their future. Do I think she is a terrorist? Of course not.

After I got my coffee, I stopped at the local corner grocery for a gallon of milk, where I chatted with the young Yemeni guys who run the store. Most of the guys who work there are cousins and one or two are from the same village back in Yemen. They're very cool, wearing baggy jeans and black heavy-metal T-shirts. Do I think that they're terrorists? Of course not.

Tonight and tomorrow morning I will teach students from around the world, two of them being Hamid from Yemen and Hassan from Morocco. Do I think that they're terrorists? Of course not. Both of them are very interesting fellows.

One of my favorite colleagues at work is Joseph from Syria and in the office next to me is Fasil from Ethiopia. Do I think that they're terrorists? Of course not.

Let me repeat. I do not believe in any reductive essentialism when it comes to idea of race and ethnicity. Except for very minor genetic suspectibilites (like sickle cell anemia) and minor surface differences, our genetic heritage is more or less the same. Our cultures, however, do socialize us differently and that is where we find conflicts.

So there is nothing in nature that makes people suicide-bombers. Islamofascism, however, is a virulent ideology can find recruits in a minority of either Islmaic Arabs (there are also numerous non-Islamic Arabs, even atheists like Zeyad) or Muslims from around the world.

In the struggle against Islamofascism, WE ARE ON THE SAME SIDE.

Islamofascism has killed thousands of American civilians and thousands of Iraqi civilians.

*

I do not believe in any reductive essentialism when it comes to idea of race and ethnicity.

reductive essentialism????? spare me. one can easily not believe in "reductive essentials" and still qualify as a racist.


So there is nothing in nature that makes people suicide-bombers. Islamofascism, however, is a virulent ideology can find recruits in a minority of either Islmaic Arabs (there are also numerous non-Islamic Arabs, even atheists like Zeyad) or Muslims from around the world.

So there is nothing in nature that makes people terrorists. christofascisim, however, is a virulent ideology can find recruits in a minority of either republicans (there are also numerous non christian fascists, even jews qualify as terrorists) or neocons from around the world.

In the struggle against terrorism, WE ARE ON THE SAME SIDE.

terrorism has killed thousands of American civilians and thousands of Iraqi civilians.

don't believe me?

shadows in the cave

24, this is a really good post! It says a lot about the priorities of the Bush administration that they will spend hundreds of billions of dollars in Iraq, including billions handed to political cronie business friends in no-bid contracts, but they are doing almost nothing to help New Orleans recover from the worst natural disaster this country has ever seen!

I think that with some editing and expansion this post might just attract the interest of some major newspapers. I think that a lot of Americans would be fascinated by your insights and comparisons of Baghdad and New Orleans, the stories that people told you there, and the friendly reactions that you received.

So there is nothing in nature that makes people terrorists. christofascisim, however, is a virulent ideology can find recruits in a minority of either republicans (there are also numerous non christian fascists, even jews qualify as terrorists) or neocons from around the world.

Annie's deep-seeded silliness however is entirely unique to her. The cause is still undetermined.

Dear Jeffrey,

You can't be a racist--some of your best friends (or at least the guys selling you beer and chips) are Muslim!

American imperialism has killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. Not to mention the millions killed by the proto-imperialism of manifest destiny.

In the struggle against imperialism,
we are all on the same side!

Best regards,

John

John Seal,

In my immediate family are people from Europe, Africa, and Asia. We have grandchildren (my nieces and nephews) whose parents come from all three continents. I have a deep love for all of them. I will NEVER accept someone like you to tell me how I feel about them or the societies into which they were born. NEVER.

You might be happy to live in a Manichean universe; I am not. I live in an inherently complex world, where issues are never as clear cut as they appear to be in your mind.

*

Yet, I don’t see you jeffrey asking Asians to be grateful that “Americans” are treating them well. You still believe that only Arabs and Muslims should feel this way, because 19 of those who call themselves Muslims killed a number of Americans.

I told you, there is no debate here. You are twisting facts and issues under discussion. I don’t care if you were racist or not, that’s something you have to live and deal with. What I object is your tendency of treating people of different backgrounds in different, based-on-race and color way.

I am just proud that in my country, Iraq, we, the average Iraqis, never thought of ourselves as Arabs, Kurds, Turkumens, Assyrians or any other ethnicities until your government in 2003 came and “taught” us how to break or government and parliament into ethnic shares.

24,

You wrote:

What I object is your tendency of treating people of different backgrounds in different, based-on-race and color way.

What? Have you read my comments?

I wrote:

Let me repeat. I do not believe in any reductive essentialism when it comes to idea of race and ethnicity. Except for very minor genetic suspectibilites (like sickle cell anemia) and minor surface differences, our genetic heritage is more or less the same. Our cultures, however, do socialize us differently and that is where we find conflicts.

I also wrote:

In my immediate family are people from Europe, Africa, and Asia. We have grandchildren (my nieces and nephews) whose parents come from all three continents. I have a deep love for all of them. I will NEVER accept someone like you to tell me how I feel about them or the societies into which they were born. NEVER.

If you saw the group photograph for my parents' fiftieth anniversary, you would remark that it looked like a snapshot of diplomats and their families from the United Nations.

Just because we may disagree on interpretations of events on the ground in Iraq, you may not then call me a racist when it is obvious from everything I have written that I am not. Again, name-calling and unfounded allegations are a very cheap rhetoricl ploy to silence one's debate partner.

*

This post has been removed by the author.

jeffrey, i think there could be a possibility you are unaware of how you are sounding. not being a racist is not something that you can qualify by telling us you aren't. it is something you reveal about yourself in your opinions about others.

some people in the US are weary of muslims because not because of 9/11, but because of the muslim/ME bashing in the propaganda we read daily and you are part of that and it seems you do not realize it.

Omar's point is that there was no racist propaganda in msm after the mass murder, as there shouldn't have been.

as i mentioned earlier taking a religion and mixing it w/a word that has very negative connotation in our society is a very dramatic form of propaganda.

there has been a lot of crime over the century in the name of christ. there are fanatics in every religion, obviously. there are also many fanatics that are not religious.

this statement you make about fascist, it is a very rude word. the fact that you cannot see that and that you continue to justify what ignorant americans think based on what the think tanks and american enterprise shove down our throats to reeve up fear in which to rally the troops and defend the great america is transparent to anyone w/a brain.

it does not matter if your family looks like the united nations. it does not matter that you do not think there is any 'essential' biological, or whatever. what matters is that you don't realize this statement is racist:

I also point out that Americans are nonetheless tolerant of Arabs living amongst us.

why would anyone even consider someone, anyone, would have to tolerate arabs?

can you hear this?

do not keep making excuses because you dig a bigger hole for yourself.
what you are doing is reaffirming a racsist meme, cmar does this upthread also. do you believe there is something in the religion of islam that is inherently more intolerant than christianity? perhaps you are forgetting how the inquisition was justified?

a fanatic can turn any religion into a dangerous weapon. a fanatic can turn a democracy into a dangerous weapon. fanatics can be dangerous. christians, jews, arabs, everyone has a chance of having fanatics. every race has fanatics. from pot pol to hitler to sadam, to udi amin...

this obsession you have w/trying to explain this ugly new word that the people you follow made up for this new war, it is insulting. i tried to show you that by switching out the terms w/christofascist but you don't get it.

Omar says enough. he has an email address, maybe you can carry on your explanations in private. however, we are all aware Omar is our host here. it is totally inappropriate for you to tell him what he can and cannot do on his own blog. your accusations towards our host rwt some cheap 'ploy' is outrageous.

i beseech you..please.

In America, the Secret Service was founded to protect the President's life as well as other members of the government. Even political opponents of the President receive protection.

24,

What did you think of the of the Iraq funding bill that set a timetable for withdrawal of U.S. troops? How about the President's veto?

More sentences from jeffrey to twist the subject because he cannot go back and delete what he already wrote.

You know what I am talking about, yet you kept trying to twist it and change the meaning. Annie told you what I am talking about and tried to explain it, but still, your conscious mind cannot admit that what you wrote is racist against Arabs. You simply don’t like Arabs and think that for them to be in the States is something they should thank you for [that’s what you wrote, not only my understanding,] although you have no right to ask to do so. Arabs and Muslims in the United States are here because they are qualified to be here and lead their community here and benefit the country with their knowledge and wisdom. No one has done them a favor.

Now, you never answered my question: why didn’t and don’t you ask the Asians to be grateful that they can live safely and freely in the States after one of them murdered dozens of American citizens?

And until you answer this question, there is no debate. There is only me reasoning with others and you going off discussion.

K,
This is all funny shows to attract Americans to voting next year. I don’t want to waste my time and yours talking about it. One thing though, I want you to think: what did the Americans or Iraqis get from the weeks-long debates over the bill? If your answer is like mine, NOTHING, then you don’t need to discuss it!

Asians, in generally, have not expressed an overt hatred towards the United States that Arabs, in general have. Your average American has seen the US flag burnings, the "Death to America" marches and chants, the head choppings, the overt discrimination towards women, Jews and non-Arabs/Muslims, the overt propaganda by the Arab media, and, of course, the terrorism that is endemic to the Arab world. The combination of ALL of these things, including the 9/11 attacks, have scarred the entire culture. There is a reasons Arabs face prejudice in the world, and its based on conduct, or perceived conduct, not skin color.

The incident at Virginia Tech was quite isolated, adn the killer was not making any kind of political statement against the US, but was just a generally impotent, and crazy person.

There have been enough Arab suicide bombings to suggest it is not isolated acts from crazy people, but culturally influenced actions.

This is why Arabs and Asians are perceived differently by Americans.

If the media, which is giving Americans the information about Arabs, is incorrect, then you are in a prime position to CHANGE this perception as a new journalist. But there is a certain amount of truth that these perceptions are based upon, and you should also accept that there are certain ARab and Persian groups influencing this perception of Middle Easterners in general.

You can blame the American people all you want, but, as you've acknowledged, we're pretty darn nice and tolerant, compared with other cultures. Anyone who has traveled should be able to acknowledge this.

I would recommend you work on changing the perception, both from the inside and out.

24,

Great answer! You are so right, it was a political show that gave us nothing.

24,

One thing though, I want you to think: what did the Americans or Iraqis get from the weeks-long debates over the bill?

Well, the Speaker of the House and the Senate Majority Leader assure us that the American people voted for empty political theater and so that's what they are giving us. Thanks guys!


Jeffrey,

24 doesn't take anything back. He doesn't admit his was wrong, or even that he put things badly. That's just not going to happen.

Remember last year when he squealed and flapped his hands over a 2yr old video of a couple juvenile delinquents getting smacked by British soldiers? He bought the insurgent propaganda (as he is prone to...look at his reaction to "the wall") that the little hoodlums were "throwing rocks at a wall".
He said: "How cheap the Iraqi blood became. How disrespected Iraqis have become."

Then it turned out that, no, these kids had fallen in with a murderous mob that (in one case) almost stoned a woman reporter to death and were throwing rocks and GRENADES at the British soldiers. I posted on it and linked to the post in his comments. Did 24 take anything back? No, he did not.

He's not going to admit that "overwhelmingly voted for" does not mean "as small minority voted for". He's not going to address the fact that NOLA overwhelming voted AGAINST Bush in 2004 and the hurricane came in 2005, or that NOLA re-elected their incompetent mayor the following year.

He's not going to admit that his lefty friends who are feeding him this blatantly counter-factual nonsense would like nothing better than to see a Rwanda-style massacre in his homeland so they can lean back with self-satisfaction and blame it on Bush.

So he's certainly not going to admit that calling you a racist is totally ridiculous.

24: "K,
This is all funny shows to attract Americans to voting next year. I don’t want to waste my time and yours talking about it. One thing though, I want you to think: what did the Americans or Iraqis get from the weeks-long debates over the bill? If your answer is like mine, NOTHING, then you don’t need to discuss it!"

My answer is not like yours. I believe the insurgents and their terrorist allies of convenience who are mass murdering your people, and killing two to three of mine per day to keep up the approval ratings of "some people", gained an impression that the American Imperialist Zionist Crusader Infidel Occupiers are in their "last throes" of helping the democratic government and will soon withdraw. Stability and prosperity saw their shadows, and condemned Iraq to more violence and bloodshed.

24 , you still here> i am in Nawlins til Saturday morning .Want to get together? Dave

KRYP The combination of ALL of these things, including the 9/11 attacks, have scarred the entire culture.

you have gone bonkers! numero uno, if you think 'our entire culture' are all following the scare tactics of the WH neonuts you are living in lala land.

is this the 29% bush followers. i can tell you i am part of this culture and so are my friends, family and neighbors which happen to include arabs who have lived here since birth integrated into our just like everybody else you are totally nuts if you think they aren't as american as you and me!! our culture isn't white! we have a mixed culture and millions of arabs and people of arab decent you idiot! we have famous hollywood actors who are arab america, doctors and teachers just like every other group!!! i don't know what kind of xenophobic world you live in bigshot but this country was built on immigrants, indentured servants and slaves. we had a war that determined that everybody is equal. get informed! there happens to be a big huge part of our culture that does not live in fear, of anyone.

This is why Arabs and Asians are perceived differently by Americans.

a racist is in no position to talk about american perceptions.

this is starting to piss me off royally.

and for your information it very well could be that the arab world, along w/the rest of the world, along w/a majority of the american public are very angry at the US right now BECAUSE WE INVADED IRAQ !!!!

this doesn't even include the billions we send to a county running an aparthied on a group of arabs.

"The point is that once Ghaddaffi aligned himself with the US, he was no longer a dangerous dictator to be persecuted."

Aligned himself with the US? No, he simply rendered himself less of an immediate threat, for which the US is very thankful. There is no alliance between the US and Libya. Considering all the messed up countries in the world, we prefer dictators with no nukes to dictators with nukes. It doesn't create some kind of mythical alliance.

"The point is the filthy hypocrisy that runs rampant through US foreign policy, where dictators are OK, so long as they are YOUR dictators. "

Its only hypocrisy to morons who can't see any nuances in our foreign policy. Every country is dealt with in a very specific way, as our foreign policy doesn't simply group countries as friend vs. foe, dictator vs. non-dictator, democracy vs. non-democracy. Obviously, no country is completely democratic, completely transparent, completely authoritarian, completely corrupt (well, maybe south africa). Fortunately, US foreign policy takes numerous factors into account when determining which countries are, in fact, a true threat to US national interest. Iran is more of a threat than Egypt, for exampe - or Libya. At least right now. It doesn't mean we "like" how Hosni Mubarak runs the country. It just means we don't consider him a pressing threat compared to the others. Is it really that difficult to understand?

Annie, fortunately everyone except you can read. If you get someone to read my post to you, you will notice that I did not say "Arab Americans" - I said Arabs - meaning people who live and are from the Arab world. I'm also including the Iranians in this even though they aren't Arab. Really, its impossible to have any kind of dialogue with morons like you and you ONLY see what you want to see and REFUSE to address problems inherent to Arab (not Arab American) culture.

The Arab world was pissed at us long before we invaded Iraq. I would think that at least part of the reason why a bunch of Arabs hijacked and slammed airplanes into the twin towers is because they were pissed off at America. I would also imagine all the anti-American rhetoric coming out of the arab press long before we invaded iraq would suggest that arabs/persians have been pissed off at america for quite some time. The endless terrorist hijackings and bombings that have gone on more or less since the US decided to take the Israeli's side in the mid-east conflict would further suggest that Arabs have been very pissed at Americans for a LONG, LONG time - way before we invaded Iraq to remove a vicious dictator.

Annie,
I see from your response to Bruno that you really DO get it. "Allocated funds" do not mean spent funds. "Spent funds" do not mean they came anywhere close to what they was "allocated" for. Yet these fools blindly support their ignorant positions. Eye witness reports mean nothing to the bubble world they have created for themselves. New Orleans is rebuilding due to the dedication of people that love her. True heroism is seem everyday. As a New Orleanian, I know in my heart why things are going so badly in Iraq. I see the ineptitude of this government everyday. It also made me see that the drumbeat message of the evil Arab is a falicy. Not because there are not very sick , sad religious zealots out there that think life is worthless, but because danger exists as a function of life. It wasn't a terrorist that destroyed my world. It was my own government that didn't think building safe levees in a flood prone area was a priority. The biggest hurt to me wasn't Katrina or even the levees breaking. It was that the America I KNEW existed doesn't. We have lived the apocalypse and my country turned its back after its gnatlike attention span was spent. I know there are so many good people in my country, but the government has been taken over by ideologs. I will do my best to change this situation. I know you will too.

24,

You wrote:

You simply don’t like Arabs and think that for them to be in the States is something they should thank you for [that’s what you wrote, not only my understanding,] although you have no right to ask to do so.

I have traveled around the world, 24, and I've met people from all over. Groups of people, especially such a loose, amorphous collection of people that are termed "Arabs," are almost impossible to define much less decide whether one likes or dislikes them as a group.

So Arabs, as a group, just like Asians or Africans or Bostonians or Russians, I neither like nor dislike. Most individual Arabs that I know, it just so happens, I do indeed like. I've already told you about my affection for many Arab students and my respect for my Arab colleagues. These individuals, coming from all parts of the Arab parts of Africa and the Middle East, show just the same range of intelligence and emotions as any other group.

Okay, about giving thanks and gratefulness.

I have NEVER said that Arabs or Iraqis should be grateful to the US for ANYTHING.

I have NEVER said that or wrote that.

The US military invaded Iraq and removed Saddam, Uday, Qusay, and the Pack of Cards for OUR OWN SECURITY. We did, in fact, ask Saddam and his sons to get the hell out of Baghdad; he refused, so we flushed Saddam and his sons out of Baghdad, hunted them down, killed Uday and Qusay, and then let the Iraqi government do to Saddam whatever they wanted. They put him on trial and then hung him. Cool.

You also wrote:

Now, you never answered my question: why didn’t and don’t you ask the Asians to be grateful that they can live safely and freely in the States after one of them murdered dozens of American citizens?

And until you answer this question, there is no debate. There is only me reasoning with others and you going off discussion.

Let me repeat.

I have never asked any Iraqi to thank us for removing its dictator.

Also, I have never asked any Arabs now living in the US to thank the Americans already living here -- including Arab-Americans, like Iraqi Mojo, for example -- for letting them enter the country.

I have never asked any Asians to thank those Americans -- including Asian-Americans -- for letting them come into our country.

We welcome anyone from any country to join us build our future, as long as they enter our country legally and that they do not aid anyone who would attack our country from either inside or outside.

*

perhaps if you read anons link, or any variety of news from NO, you would [know] although the money has been collected from the tax payers, most of it has not been delivered.-annie

I know. It will be. Sorry for the wait. If you read the article I linked to it explains how and how the money will be spent on reconstruction as well as the lack of oversight.

For example:
"Already, the government has spent $3.3 billion to snap up 200,000 trailers, mobile homes and recreational vehicles from showrooms across the country for the homeless survivors."

The opposite is true for the Iraq war. It is used now but collected in taxes over many decades. Think big annie.

I am not defending FEMA or the way the money is being spent. I'm sure those problems can be fixed just like the city. But please stop linking the Iraq war an Hurricane relief. They are not directly related. Withdrawing from Iraq will not make New Orleans reconstruction go any faster, will it? The U.S. is a rich country. There is enough money for both projects. Most of that money come back into the U.S. economy anyway.

Just so you know, $3.3 billion is 10% of Iraq's 2005 GDP, just on trailers!

K,
The Gulf South and Iraq are closely inter-twined as long as "Americans" are saying it costs too much money to save a great American city. It would take 3 months of Iraq war spending to make the city completely safe. So now , the city is about to enter a second hurricane season after the terrible year of 2005 and we are still under mortal risk. We are under alert for flooding tonight just from a bad rainstorm because the pumps are not working YET. Do you remember the speech the president gave in Jackson Square? I still believed in what presidents said then. I don't anymore.

Dave,
Unfotunately I only had three days to stay in NO. But I'm going back in the summer, maybe. But thanks for the invit.
Have fun there and eat some beignets for me!

Dear Kryptonite,

Those naughty, NAUGHTY Arabs. So ungrateful..why can't they just accept that whatever America wants is what's also best for the world, and in their best interests? How dare they be upset about the authoritarian regimes we prop up in Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, etc.? How dare they be upset about the plight of the Palestinian people, who not only had their land stolen from them, but now live in a state of apartheid--apartheid that is now sponsored to the tune of $3,000,000,000 A year by you and me? How dare they wonder why we can get all worked up about so-called 'weapons of mass destruction' that don't exist, when we look the other way about Israel's illegal nuclear arsenal?

Why, if only they would realize that Dear Leader Imperator Bush knows what is best for them, they would be ever so grateful! They would no doubt simply hand us the keys to their oil industries and not have to worry their pretty little heads about it ANYMORE.

And dearest Jeffrey, I would be ever so happy if a foreign government came along and removed OUR commander guy/unitary decider.
Let freedom ring, from sea to shining sea!

Kind regards,

John

John,

I would be ever so happy if a foreign government came along and removed OUR commander guy/unitary decider.

We've had over two hundreds years of successful presidential elections where power was peacefully transferred from one administration to the other. By law, there will be an election in November of 2008 and then a transfer of power in January of 2009. You just need to vote.

So who do you think you'll vote for next year?

By the way, the faux deference -- "dearest Jeffrey" and "Kind regards" -- is sophomoric. People are laughing at you. Either you are new to the blogosphere or you're a pimply teenager on your birthday-present laptop.

*

[Annie] “don't even talk to me about what out 'plans ' for iraq are. lets take a look at what we are doing to iraq. not what they say they are going to do.”

EXACTLY.

Deeds, not words, are what count.

Words are cheap, cost nothing and have no direct impact on the ground situation. For example, building huge bases is an act of occupation. The fact that the US says they are ‘temporary’ is nothing but a meaningless exercise in spin.

[annie] “lockheed martin went from practically bankrupt to a billions in profit company.”

Lockheed is a company with a VERY dodgy reputation in the defence industry. They’ve been implicated in countless bribery and under-the –table deals.

[annie] “about those ceramic articles..yes that is probably me, buy you know how old work is.. sometimes not quite up to par.”

LOL, that’s what I always feel when my older stuff is seen as well. But I thought that those vases with the long necks were lovely. Very nice glazing too. You’re way better than I am … :)

[Jeffrey] “Islamofascism, however, is a virulent ideology can find recruits in a minority of either Islmaic Arabs (there are also numerous non-Islamic Arabs, even atheists like Zeyad) or Muslims from around the world.”

I more or less agree with this, the same as I feel the nutty ultra-Christians are a minority of Christians.

However, you have to then decide what to do about the problem. Myself, I believe that non-interventionism in the affairs of nutcases is a better way to deal with the problem, and that the societies that produce these idiots will deal with them better than we can.

For example, even though I feel the 9-11 attacks were unjustifiable, the truth is that bin Laden had a point when he was getting all worked up about US military expansion in the ME. The reason that the Arab street can’t stand the US boils down to this and to the unconditional support the US gives to Israel, which is crushing their Palestinian brothers. Again, if you stick your nose into other people’s business, you’re apt to get it cut off.

OK, you obviously have a more hands-on approach to the “Islamofascists” which is more or less “find them and kill them”.

That’s good and well, except for one minor problem. This approach plays directly into their ideology. Their premise is that the US wants to come to the ME and destroy Islam. So, when you go to the ME and kill a whole bunch of Muslims, not to mention levelling their mosques – you are VALIDATING their viewpoint and shifting their fringe rhetoric to centre stage. WORSE than this is that they are able to confront you directly and present their ideology and their stance as a (and from their view - the only) SOLUTION to your aggression.

In other words, to the Arab and Muslim street, they are closer to being HEROES, as opposed to being some dodgy types to be watched carefully - which is exactly what they'd be under normal circumstances.

Think about it. Virtually all Iraqis want the US out, and a solid majority support attacks on US forces there.

The AQ ideology is in perfect sync with this sentiment except for their idiotic religious angle, which is going to sink them for sure. (The primary reason why AQ is hated by ordinary Iraqis is because the Salafis made the extremely stupid mistake of dragging their religious schism into the fight against the US and killing tons of Iraqi Shiites and imposing their puritanism.)

I put it to you that if they had not done this, Iraqis would be lining the streets cheering them on.

The situation in Iraq before the invasion was that Saddam Hussein strung radical nutters up by the neck as soon as he found them. Sure, it was in his own self-interest, but the point is he kept a lid on the AQ types. Right now, the US invasion is a bonanza for the Wahhabis/Salafis. Their support is higher than it’s ever been. They’re hoping that you NEVER leave, or at least, don’t leave before THEIR mission is “accomplished” which is to promote their ideology to a mainstream position. And THE US is the primary means through which they will accomplish this.

[Jeffrey] “The US military invaded Iraq and removed Saddam, Uday, Qusay, and the Pack of Cards for OUR OWN SECURITY.”

Yeah, and how’s that working out for you?

How many Americans did Hussein kill?

How many Americans (not to mention Iraqis) have died since then, after the US “security plan” was undertaken?

Some plan.

[bruno] "The point is that once Ghaddaffi aligned himself with the US, he was no longer a dangerous dictator to be persecuted."
[kryptonite] Aligned himself with the US? No, he simply rendered himself less of an immediate threat, for which the US is very thankful. There is no alliance between the US and Libya. Considering all the messed up countries in the world, we prefer dictators with no nukes to dictators with nukes. It doesn't create some kind of mythical alliance.

Quite simply, that’s wrong. I note that the US has been IN ALLIANCE with the DICTATOR Musharraf of Pakistan that DOES have nuclear weapons. Heck, he’s been a real pal to you up to now. The truth is nukes in the hands of a dictator don’t matter quite as much as whether the dictator is on YOUR side or not. The same as Ghaddaffi ceased to be a threat once he bowed into the US sphere of influence.

[bruno] “"The point is the filthy hypocrisy that runs rampant through US foreign policy, where dictators are OK, so long as they are YOUR dictators. "”
[kryptonite] “Its only hypocrisy to morons who can't see any nuances in our foreign policy.”

Sorry, chum, pretending that “freedom n’ democracy” is of paramount importance to the US in the sphere of foreign policy, while simultaneously overthrowing democracies and supporting dictatorships IS HYPOCRITICAL. You personally may not make this ideological claim, but many others, including the people that run your PR departments, sure do.

When you base a casus belli on exporting democracy to Iraq, it becomes very important to examine whether the basis the US is using for the war is honest or not. And the casus belli is NOT honest, because it’s clear that the US promotes or overthrows democracies on the basis on whether the action is in the US interest or not … NOT on a pure pro-democracy ideological basis. Those are the facts.

"So ungrateful..why can't they just accept that whatever America wants is what's also best for the world, and in their best interests?" - John Seal.

Does anyone actually read? Let's rephrase:

"Americans are so ungrateful. Why can't they just accept that whatever a Middle Eastern despot wants is what's also best for the world, and in the Americans best interests..."

or

"Why can't Americans should just accept that Arabs want them all dead?"

"Quite simply, that’s wrong. I note that the US has been IN ALLIANCE with the DICTATOR Musharraf of Pakistan that DOES have nuclear weapons. Heck, he’s been a real pal to you up to now."

Quite simply, you've missed the point, which is that US relationships with individual countries are extremely complex and not based on some hard and fast formula that you've thought up to support your otherwise unsupportable arguments.

It's an alliance? Well, if it is, its totally different than the alliance between the UK and the US. We don't share a lot of military secrets with the Pakistani governemnt. We've simply used them to help fight al qaeda and the taleban. Musharaff has done just enough to keep himself out of our crosshairs.

Further, is Musharaff really a dictator? I guess, but he's never been overtly hostile to the US. Further, Pakistan has a tradition of transparency, rule of law and democracy that far surpasses that of Libya or Iraq, for example. Therefore, Pakistan is more "trusted", not by much though.

Nevertheless, you really think the US likes the fact that Pakistan has nukes? Of course not, but the US needs Pakistan to help in their fight against Al qaeda. Again - the relationships are only hypocritical to people who have a very limited and uneducated conceptualization of how foreign policy should work.

"The truth is nukes in the hands of a dictator don’t matter quite as much as whether the dictator is on YOUR side or not. The same as Ghaddaffi ceased to be a threat once he bowed into the US sphere of influence."

Again, it depends on what country you are talking about and how you define "dictator." there are a million factors that go into these decisions, and you're basing all of your prejudgments on whether YOU define the head of the state as a "dictator" and whether YOU define the relationship as an "alliance." Pakistan, Libya, Iraq, Iran, North Korea are all totally different countries in the minds of the people running US foreign policy. We do not lump them together, like you, as "dictator countries" and we support, or don't support, the governments of those countries to different degrees based, for the most part, on whether or not WE define them as true democracies. Again, numerous factors are considered when determining how "democratic" the country truly is.

""The truth is nukes in the hands of a dictator don’t matter quite as much as whether the dictator is on YOUR side or not. The same as Ghaddaffi ceased to be a threat once he bowed into the US sphere of influence."

Here's a little chart to make it all easier for you to understand. I've ranked dictators 1-4 - 1 being the worst and 4 being the best kind of dictator.

1. Dictator who has nukes and wants to kill us.
2. Dictator who does not have nukes but wants to kill us.
3. Dictator who has nukes, but does not want to kill us.
4. Dictator who does not have nukes, and does not want to kill us.

Does this make it clearer to you, treestump?

But please stop linking the Iraq war an Hurricane relief. They are not directly related. Withdrawing from Iraq will not make New Orleans reconstruction go any faster, will it? The U.S. is a rich country. There is enough money for both projects. Most of that money come back into the U.S. economy anyway.

oh but you see they are related, very very much so. as Omar points out in the title to his post.. in many many ways new orleans isn't very different from baghdad

from your link

Democrats said the Republican leadership wrote billions of dollars in checks without considering whether the package offers the proper help -- and proper accountability.

you don't say?

"The unfortunate truth is, Mr. Speaker, this compliant Republican Congress has acted more like an adjunct to this administration than a co-equal, independent branch of our government,

oh, you mean like offering no bid contracts to all their buddies without accountability on how that money was being spent???


The bill stirred concerns in both parties about possible fraud. Under one provision, procurement officers can use government credit cards to make purchases costing as much as $250,000, without competitive bidding and without considering small-business and minority-owned-business allotments.

small business? oh my no why would we consider small business at a time like this. why dump the money into the local population when you can import mexican labor for a tenth of what you can pocket. the budget that is listed at the bottom of the page cites 3.9 billion dollars going to the department of defense. companies like blackwater..

The government has spent $62 billion or about $200,000 per person for New Orleans victims.

i swear k you are living in a fantasy world. you cite an article written 2 years ago about money that was alloted by congress and completely ignore thet FACT that most of that money has not yet arrived in new orleans..

House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Tex.) said that "we've got safeguards" to ensure that the money is spent appropriately. "Sure, there is going to be waste in money," he acknowledged. "You can't deal with 5 million people and not have some waste in money.

tom delay??? our criminal fraudulent ex house majority leader who's been indicted for swindling and money laundering?? k takes 62 billion dollars alloted by congress 2 years ago, pretends it has been spent already , then take the effected population which tom delay says is 5 million multiply that by the $200,000 k claims was spent on every person and somehow the math seems a little off. we would need 500 billion dollars for this to be a reality. from your article

The details of yesterday's spending package offer a glimpse of the impact Katrina will have on taxpayers. Nearly half of the money -- $23.2 billion -- will go directly to as many as 1.1 million households in the form of housing grants and other assistance. Such aid will be capped initially at $26,200 per household.

has every household recieved 26k? can 26k buy anyone a household in todays world?

k
For example:
"Already, the government has spent $3.3 billion to snap up 200,000 trailers, mobile homes and recreational vehicles from showrooms across the country for the homeless survivors."

so, this is your example is it. lets take a little look at the remainer of he paragraph.

Clayton Homes Inc., a Tennessee-based manufactured-home company, is trying to get 100 homes a day from its showrooms to a FEMA staging area, said Chris Nicely, the company's vice president for marketing. "We did make a profit on it," he said of the order. "It's hard to say how much."

clayton homes of tennessee? .

sure why not. lets scroll down and see who's wheels get greased by clayton homes.

10 thousand to RNC
2 thousand to sen rick santorum
2 thousand to sen jon kyle
2 thousand to the republican party of tennessee
3 thousand to alexandar lamar
4 thousand to george bush
another 3 thousand to the republican party of tennessee
and yet another 3 thousand to the gop.

got the picture? let's take a look at more of the contractors

now, let us review something else you said

Most of that money come back into the U.S. economy anyway.

you don't say???? and how exactly on earth do you not see that iraq and new orleans are connected??

the money from american taxpayers funneled into iraq and katrina are going where?????? they are going back into the economy alright. lining the pockets of members of the gop. in no bid contracts that are unaccountable, hiring undocumented workers whether from mexico or the phillipines (like the guys who died yesterday in the green zone). workers that don't get healthcare, benefits, pensions...

wake up

oh yeah, i forgot to mention.. it is not only the american taxpayer that funnels money to the gop guys, it is .... iraqis too.

In the short term, through the Development Fund and the Export-Import Bank programs, the Iraqi people's oil will finance U.S. corporate entrees into Iraq.

read it and weep. the world bank handles it, neocon wolfowitz makes sure it gets spent in all the right places

profitting off katrina from the center for public integrity

let's check out where some of that 62 billion went.

"[A]s the cleanup begins, Northrop will have a much easier time than most other Hurricane Katrina victims, at least financially. Unlike many small businesses and families that may never fully recover from the storm, Northrop - through a combination of insurance and, most important, support from the Pentagon - is likely to end up having to pay little, if anything at all, from its own coffers to repair the damage. The Navy is asking for $2 billion in Federal Emergency Management Agency funds,

"Nearly eight months after Hurricane Katrina triggered the nation's largest housing crisis since the Second World War, a hastily improvised $10 billion effort by the federal government has produced vast sums of waste and misspent funds, an array of government audits and outside analysts have concluded. As the Federal Emergency Management Agency wraps up the initial phase of its temporary housing program -- ending reliance on cruise ships and hotels for people sent fleeing by the Aug. 29 storm -- the toll of false starts and missed opportunities appears likely to top $1 billion and perhaps much more... FEMA spent $900 million to buy 25,000 manufactured homes and 1,300 modular homes, most of which cannot be used because agency rules say they are too big or unsafe in flood zones. The agency spent $632 million to subsidize hotel rooms for tens of thousands of families at an average cost of $2,400 a month, three times what it later paid families to rent two-bedroom apartments. The agency spent $249 million to secure 8,136 cruise-ship cabins for six months, at a cost ... estimated at $5,100 a month per passenger. That is six times the cost of renting two-bedroom apartments." 4/14/06

"Federal agencies in charge of Katrina cleanup have been repeatedly criticized for lapses in managing the legions of contractors who perform tasks ranging from delivering ice to rebuilding schools. Last Thursday, Congress's independent auditor, the Government Accountability Office, said inadequate oversight had cost taxpayers tens of millions of dollars, by allowing contractors to build shelters in the wrong places or to purchase supplies that were not needed. But each week, many more millions are paid to contractors who get a cut of the profits from a job performed by someone else. In instances reviewed by The Washington Post, the difference between the job's actual price and the fee charged to taxpayers ranged from 40 percent to as high as 1,700 percent. ... Defenders of the multi-tiered system say it is a normal and even necessary part of doing business in the aftermath of a major disaster."


"In the aftermath of Katrina, the feds spent $10 million to renovate and furnish 240 rooms in Alabama that housed just six hurricane survivors, congressional investigators found. Authorities also spent $3 million on 4,000 beds that were never slept in and blew a fortune on ice that was not needed. ... The Government Accountability Office's review of 13 major contracts revealed that poor planning by the Federal Emergency Management Agency and miscommunication resulted in widespread waste. The renovated rooms in Alabama, for example, were in military barracks at the Army's Fort McClellan. ... Nor did FEMA look very hard to find the contractors. Of more than 700 contracts worth $500,000 and up, more than half were doled out without seeking lowest bids. Many went to firms like Bechtel and Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg, Brown & Root, which have close ties to the Bush administration and the Republican Party."


"Senate minority leader Harry Reid said Saturday he was “ashamed for our country” after visiting the thousands of FEMA-owned mobile homes lined up at Hope Airport that have yet to be used as shelters for hurricane victims on the Gulf Coast. ... Federal Emergency Management Agency has said that it was unable to put the trailers to use because federal regulations prohibit placing them in flood plains, and many of those needing shelter after the hurricanes are in areas classified as flood-prone. Cost estimates for the trailers have ranged from $350 million to $800 million. ... Reid said he was particularly appalled because he knows that, in Pass Christian, Miss., for example, more than 100 hurricane victims are living in a flood plain in tents."

"FEMA has spent more than $500 million on hotel bills. At one point the agency was paying for 85,000 hotel rooms.

just a few articles from from katrina timeline

wow, annie, thanks for that info. I've always bought the line that the gov't didn't really care about the NO people, but it's obvious from your info that they were trying like gangbusters to get them housed and taken care of.

Somebody upthread mentioned something about going into hurricane season again. No worries, Nagin's on the job (still).

well rhus, that would depend on your definition of gangbusters. after katrina obviously there was plenty of awareness and evidence from some members of congress the money was being wasted. there is also plenty of evidence congress and the president made sure money was available to fema just like they made sure it was available for iraq. i don't think this is disputed.

then we have the issue of political appointment determining who would run fema and political appointments determining who would be distributing the money and how it got distributed.

obviously wrt both katrina and iraq it is irrelevant trying to prove 'who cared'. this is your line of argument about everything.

if the gop really cared about getting a job done they might want to start by hiring professionals to run these departments instead of horse traders. the old excellent fema (just like the old excllent justice department) WAS DISMANTLED BY CHENY/BUSH and replaced by incompetence.

so if your idea of gangbusters is THAT THEY ALLOTTED THE MONEY but had no oversite to make sure it was spent appropriatly... well, i am not impressed.

to buy millions of trailors people can't use.. who does it help? it helps people who make trailors.

that is not gangbusters. gangbusters is not spending the same amount of money on leasing cars and trucks (iraq) or hotel rooms(katrina) that it would cost to purchase the trucks and hotels.

nice try on the narrative rhus, that seems to be your specialty, spin. so much hot air but no substance, just like fema.

I've always bought the line that the gov't didn't really care about the NO people

really? i must have missed the part about you saying you thought the government didn't care about katrina.

did you say that. which post? that would have been the first time you ever attributed the characteristic of 'not caring' to our government.

did you really ever 'buy that line' rhus, and if you did, why didn't you mention in in the first 150 posts?

you are so transparently slippery, slimy, creepola.

annie, do you understand enough about government purchasing to realize it takes a loooong time to go through a competitive bidding/procurement process?

It was interesting that 24 mentioned how quickly Saddam rebuilt Iraq after No Blood For Oil I. There are many reasons for this, but not having to use competitive bidding may have been one, don't you think?

So you just jump to the critical side of any event and ignore the flip side. That's what you did with your list. That's what you do with everything.

One more example is the criticism that the trailers haven't been emplaced because of flood zone restrictions. Obviously they should be emplaced, no argument there. But the implication that FEMA should just go ahead and put them in the flood zones is ridiculous. What happens if they did that, and they got flooded?

Put it this way. Imagine if you went to teach pottery to a group of preschoolers. You do that, and everybody has a good time. When it comes time to put the pieces in the kiln, you have a problem. There's way too many preschollers for you to be able to put all their pieces in the kiln. However, the school has a rule against preschoolers putting their own pottery in the kiln. But you get an idea to let each preschooler put their own piece in the kiln anyway, and sure enough, one of them gets severely burned. Of course you would expect to be forgiven, right, annie?

There is room enough for many substantial criticisms against the Katrina effort in any direction. You don't need to list superficial or ill-considered ones just to get a longer list.

Annie,

So I think what you are trying to say is that "Republicans are bad", no?

annie: "really? i must have missed the part about you saying you thought the government didn't care about katrina."

I said NO was a failure of leadership in the first post. I meant there was blame enough for the local, state, AND federal level.

Nobody will touch my Nagin question. What's up with that?

just to highlight what the braindead may not notice..

Federal Emergency Management Agency has said that it was unable to put the trailers to use because federal regulations prohibit placing them in flood plains, and many of those needing shelter after the hurricanes are in areas classified as flood-prone.

maybe the federal department could get on the phone w/the federal regulators and find out if their federal plan was going to work before they spent the federal money. ya think?

this is the kind of rocket scientist logic people used to use in the federal government. now, do you think all of these people are that stupid? me neither. lets review some more federal work.. from the same katrina timeline link above...

The president.... pledging to make New Orleans's levees "equal or better than they were before" the storm

"An expert panel monitoring reconstruction of New Orleans's hurricane-protection system warned federal engineers last month about the presence of weak, sandy soils in a newly rebuilt levee, the panel's leader said yesterday, escalating a dispute over the soundness of the government's rebuilding effort. Raymond Seed, an engineering professor at the University of California at Berkeley, also disclosed new details about what he described as serious flaws in the Army Corps of Engineers building practices. Seed said the problems were observed in at least three locations along an 11-mile earthen levee near Lake Borgne, east of New Orleans, that was nearly washed away by Hurricane Katrina on Aug. 29. ... In the letter, Seed said he and another Berkeley engineer personally observed Corps contractors constructing a section of the levee using "clean, fine grained sand, which is highly erodeable.""

"he Army Corps of Engineers seems likely to fulfill a promise by President Bush to rebuild New Orleans's toppled flood walls to their original, pre-Katrina height by June 1, but two teams of independent experts monitoring the $1.6 billion reconstruction project say large sections of the rebuilt levee system will be substantially weaker than before the hurricane hit. These experts say the Corps, racing to rebuild 169 miles of levees destroyed or damaged by Katrina, is taking shortcuts to compress what is usually a years-long construction process into a few weeks. They say that weak, substandard materials are being used in some levee walls, citing lab tests as evidence. And they say the Corps is deferring repairs to flood walls that survived Katrina but suffered structural damage that could cause them to topple in a future storm."

would this be the same army corps of engineers that had a huge barge hanging out after the storm passed but before the levee burst sitting right next to the levee?

the same army corps of engineers who threatened to arrest the canadian team that offered to fix the levee?

the same army corps of engineers that built all those failed projects in iraq?

"In dramatic and sometimes agonizing terms, federal disaster officials warned President Bush and his homeland security chief before Hurricane Katrina struck that the storm could breach levees, put lives at risk in New Orleans' Superdome and overwhelm rescuers, according to confidential video footage. Bush didn't ask a single question during the final briefing before Katrina struck on Aug. 29, but he assured soon-to-be-battered state officials: "We are fully prepared."

did you ever wonder what the united stands for in united states? how could we not notice the constant harping on nagin in this thread. when people run for mayor are they expected to solve problems A BIG NATIONAL FEDERAL EMERGENCY RESCUE ANGENCY is created to deal with?

would this be the same federal agency of the WORLD SUPERPOWER?

No worries, Nagin's on the job

yeah, so is the army corps of engineers, unfortuneatly.

annie, so I was going to ask you what crooksandliars.com had to say about Nagin, if anything. Then I realized "heck, I can just find out for myself". So I did.

There were two supperficial mentions of him, with no commentary. Then a poster put up a link to his 60 minutes interview. Lo and behold, "John" does have something to say about him:

"I was wondering why he didn’t blast the President when he had the chance. I say this because he was so critical to the Feds response."

Searing!

I do believe that 60 minutes interview was the one where he was asked about the parked school buses, and he gave one of the weaseliest answers I've ever seen.

annie: "how could we not notice the constant harping on nagin in this thread."

Are you joking? I asked 24, and then anonymous, about Nagin. No takers. No harping until just now, where I'm trying to find out about perceptions around his role in this.

Imagine if Nagin was a white republican who had contributed to the Bush campaign. Got anything to say about him now?

annie: "really? i must have missed the part about you saying you thought the government didn't care about katrina."

I said NO was a failure of leadership in the first post

that is a little off topic rhus. a failure of leadership is not the same as 'not caring'. and i am a bit surprised because you are all about proving who does and does not care a rat ass. but i never heard you say you the government didn't give a rats ass, now did i.

do you understand enough about government purchasing to realize it takes a loooong time to go through a competitive bidding/procurement process?

oh really, because i noticed after 9/11 the fema and cleanup contractors started immediately shipping the debri, hauled away so fast there was not enough time for crime scene investigators to examine it before a large part of it was hauled of to china. victims relatives saying it happened so fast they didn't have time to sift for the remains.

maybe that is because the mayor was so incredible. fema was on the scene faster than you could say lickity split.

but maybe that is because they were all in town anyway for that planned fema drill. according to rudi's 9/11 commission testimony

"the reason Pier 92 was selected as a command center was because on the next day, on September 12, Pier 92 was going to have a drill, it had hundreds of people here, from FEMA, from the Federal Government, from the State, from the State Emergency Management Office, and they were getting ready for a drill for biochemical attack. So that was gonna be the place they were going to have the drill. The equipment was already there, so we were able to establish a command center there, within three days, that was two and a half to three times bigger than the command center that we had lost at 7 World Trade Center. And it was from there that the rest of the search and rescue effort was completed. "

well, isn't that just incredible timing, just like the incredible timing of NORAD to have all those exercises that rendered our federal protection obsolete during the morning of 9/11 because the airplanes were all scrambled up in excercises and even tho there were planes nearby there was so much confusion about the excercises...pity.

new orleans was predicted to be the most likely natural disaster to our nation. there had been weekends of fema management response reviews. unlike 9/11 they had lots of warnings. they also had the expertise of professional that used to run the department. they ignored all these people.

iraq was planned also, they had looooooots of time to perform open bidding, but they didn't did they.. they gave no bid contracts to halliburton.

oh, btw. it was hurricane season was it not? there was a warning the hurricane was going to occur. the governor did make a written request for assistance prior to the disaster.

it wasn't like 9/11 now was it?

By midnight on Monday the White House knew. Monday night I was at the state Emergency Operations Center and nobody was aware that the levees had breeched. Nobody.”

The charges were so devastating - the White House’s withholding from the state police the information that the city was about to flood - that from almost any source, I simply would have dismissed it. But this was not just any source. The whistleblower was Dr. Ivor van Heerden, deputy chief of the Louisiana State University Hurricane Studies Center, and the chief technician advising the state on saving lives during Katrina.

That Monday night, August 29, 2005, the sleepless crew at the state Emergency Operations Center, directing the response to Hurricane Katrina, were high-fiving it, relieved that Katrina had swung east of New Orleans, sparing the city from drowning.

They were wrong. The Army Corps, FEMA and White House knew for critical hours that the levees had begun to crack, but withheld the information for a day and night. The delay was deadly.

Van Heerden explained that levees don’t collapse in a single bang. First, there’s a small crack or two, a few feet wide, which take hours to burst open into visible floodways.

Had the state known New Orleans’ bulwark was failing, they would have shifted resources to get out those left in the danger zone.

Van Heerden: FEMA knew on 11 o’clock on Monday that the levees had breeched. At 2pm they flew over the 17th Street Canal and took video of the breech.

Question: So the White House wouldn’t tell you that the levees had breeched?

Van Heerden: They didn’t tell anybody.

Question: And you’re at the Emergency Center?

Van Heerden: I mean nobody knew. Well, the Corps of Engineers knew. FEMA knew. None of us knew.

what did they know, and when did they know it

i've watched interviews w/this van heerden guy on msnbc.

me: "do you understand enough about government purchasing to realize it takes a loooong time to go through a competitive bidding/procurement process?"

annie: "oh really, because i noticed after 9/11 the fema and cleanup contractors started immediately shipping the debri, hauled away so fast there was not enough time for crime scene investigators to examine it before a large part of it was hauled of to china. victims relatives saying it happened so fast they didn't have time to sift for the remains."

Were those no-bid contracts, or competitive bids?

What are you getting at about 9/11 anyway?

me: "I said NO was a failure of leadership in the first post"

annie: "that is a little off topic rhus. a failure of leadership is not the same as 'not caring'. and i am a bit surprised because you are all about proving who does and does not care a rat ass. but i never heard you say you the government didn't give a rats ass, now did i."

Actually I was just reading the wikipedia article on the hurricane, and it appears that the government did give a rat's *ss about it. At all levels. And people & groups did come together to help. A lot. Even Nagin. Although, in a branch wikipedia article about the criticism, I did find this:

"New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin has also felt criticism for failing to implement his evacuation plan and for ordering residents to a shelter of last resort without any provisions for food, water, security, or sanitary conditions. Perhaps the most important criticism of Nagin is that he delayed his emergency evacuation order until less than a day before landfall, which led to hundreds of deaths of people who (by that time) could not find any way out of the city."

I would consider that a bit of a boo-boo. Wouldn't you?

anonymous

It wasn't a terrorist that destroyed my world. It was my own government that didn't think building safe levees in a flood prone area was a priority. The biggest hurt to me wasn't Katrina or even the levees breaking. It was that the America I KNEW existed doesn't. We have lived the apocalypse and my country turned its back after its gnatlike attention span was spent. I know there are so many good people in my country, but the government has been taken over by ideologs. I will do my best to change this situation. I know you will too.

keep the faith anonymous, there are still americans around who care about the wellbeing of our once great nation.

What are you getting at about 9/11 anyway?

well, it was supposedly completely unexpected, yet fema performed rather admirably. i understand your desire to scapegoat one major.

we have a federal response team, a huge organization that is task w/these kinds of natural disasters. if you want to blame the mayor go for it. apparently a mayor w/absolutely no foriegn policy experience is running for president because of his alarmingly coincidental performance as a team of 100's of emergency rescue teams just happened to be on hand . hmm..

Were those no-bid contracts, or competitive bids?

i don't know, but then again no bid contracts are for unexpected emergency events, unlike things like predicted hurricanes, levee breaches and planned invasions.

take it away rhus, play blame the major, i'm sure you have an audience just perched on the edge of their seats.

54,000+ irais died over two weeks in the FAW battle. Worth it! Absolutely NOT

annie: "i don't know, but then again no bid contracts are for unexpected emergency events, unlike things like predicted hurricanes, levee breaches and planned invasions."

Hurricane Katrina formed on August 23, 2005 and hit NO on August 29. Regular gov't competitive procurement takes longer than six days!

annie: "take it away rhus, play blame the major, i'm sure you have an audience just perched on the edge of their seats."

I just wanted to know why they re-elected him. Maybe they have some insider information as NO residents that I don't have? The larger question is why are people willing to forgive him for mistakes, but not the federal gov't. "Brownie" lost his job, but Nagin kept his. I guess I just have to kept wondering.

Dear Jeffrey,

Alas, my computer cannot transmit the gentle laughter apparently ebbing forth from all corners of the tubes of the googlenet.

It is also an unfortunate truth that I am unable to vote in an American election, though I do have the privilege of both paying taxes and being drafted. Sadly, at my age, they won't take me, as it would provide me such great pleasure to torture and kill on behalf of Dear Leader. As I'm sure it would you.

Yours sincerely,

John

PS. Oceania has ALWAYS been at war with East Asia!

The larger question is why are people willing to forgive him for mistakes, but not the federal gov't.

gee?? maybe because the most important task of a federal emergency management agency is to manage an emergency. where the main job of a mayor is to deal w/the everyday workings of a city.


although i do agree, new orleans should have been more prepared. but then one of the ways one gets prepared for something like this is to have the number on hand of the federal agency that is supposed to handle natural disasters.

Hurricane Katrina formed on August 23, 2005 and hit NO on August 29. Regular gov't competitive procurement takes longer than six days!

you are so not listening rhus. put on your hearing gloves.

the problem in new orleans was considered the number one predicted national disaster for our country in 1005 before it happened

did you hear that. fema knew that.

there was not another predicted natural disaster that even came close

the way fema used to operate they had emergency teams set up, ready to go. if i was in charge of that agency i would have had things like clean up crews and rescue operation specialist and medical staff ready to go in every area of the country.

it is not something you throw together at the last minute. it is not as if some meteor fell from the sky. they had some big fema gathering in new orleans at the hurricane center, so fema was well aware of the predicted hurricane, the condition of the levees, louisianna had been trying to get earmarks for the levees for a long time. but they didn't have the chops of red states like mississippi w/gov's like haley barbour w/deep pockets into the rove machine.

the other reason people are more willing to forgive him is he is one man who is major to one midsize city. he is not a big fat federal agency belonging to the world superpower. people hold him to a different standard than they hold to the prez. the head of that agency was appointed by the prez. he could have chosen anyone. he could of kept the pro who ran it under clinton.

if you were going to have brain surgery would you go to the best brain surgeon, or the guy who plays gin rummy w/the head of the gop who happens to judge horse competitions?

the reason people blame the federal government is because if god forbid there should be an emergency in their neighborhood nagin isn't going to be task w/solving it. fema is. frankly it makes people a little nervous as it should. some people actually used to think the federal government was good for something, before it was drowned in a bathtub of utter incompetence, cronism, partisan roveness above all else.

what a stupid question. maybe the people of new orleans thought nagin may have done a better job but they trusted he loved their city and wasn't out to kill it or sell it to halliburton. i have no idea. he is a major for gods sake.

me: "The larger question is why are people willing to forgive him for mistakes, but not the federal gov't."

annie: "gee?? maybe because the most important task of a federal emergency management agency is to manage an emergency. where the main job of a mayor is to deal w/the everyday workings of a city."

- and -

annie: "the reason people blame the federal government is because if god forbid there should be an emergency in their neighborhood nagin isn't going to be task w/solving it. fema is."

from the wiki article I linked above:

"Within the United States and as delineated in the National Response Plan, response and planning is first and foremost a local government responsibility. When local government exhausts its resources, it then requests specific additional resources from the county level. The request process proceeds similarly from the county to the state to the federal government as additional resource needs are identified. Many of the problems that arose developed from inadequate planning and back-up communications systems at various levels."

annie: "but then one of the ways one gets prepared for something like this is to have the number on hand of the federal agency that is supposed to handle natural disasters."

Same wiki article:

"One example of this is that the City of New Orleans attempted to manage the disaster from a hotel ballroom with inadequate back-up communications plans instead of a properly staffed Emergency Operations Center. When phone service failed, they had difficulty communicating their specific needs to the state EOC in Baton Rouge."

annie: "if i was in charge of that agency i would have had things like clean up crews and rescue operation specialist and medical staff ready to go in every area of the country."

Oh yeah, that would've been more efficient! What makes you qualified anyway?

annie: what a stupid question.

Why is it stupid to ask someone from NO why they re-elected their mayor?

Boy I know I am going to regret wasting my time like this but here it goes -
1.)The storm struck Sunday night Monday morning. It lasted 11-13 hours. The storm was going to the Florida panhandle until late Friday afternoon. At that point it was on our radar. Keep an eye close. Listen to updates. Probabilities. Storm tracks. Saturday evening we knew it was coming to us. SO it was 24 hours to get things moving. Even then small jogs to the east or west makes a HUGE difference in the amount of winds and rains localities get. (In actuality the storm jogged east after hitting Buras, LA and ended up hitting the MS. Gulf Coast full force. New Orleans was on the weak west side and survived the hurricane just fine. Battered but fine.) The REAL time line was 24 hours. 24 hours to evacuate a large city with 2-3 routes out. It is done on a staggered schedule, the southern most parishes starting first. Those routes are basically parking lots in a very short amount of time. 12 hours to get to anywhere close to safety. Even if you leave, will you make it to shelter in time or be struck in your car? Do you have enough gas? Where will you stay? DO you have money to pay for it? Will they allow pets? Grandma refuses to leave because she is 95 years old and has NEVER left for any hurricane. Do you desert her? National planners KNOW at least 20% of any urban population will not evacuate. The city's plan was to provide the Superdome as shelter of last resort for those that insisted on staying. Those that did this were actually the lucky ones because at least they survived. Many could have been like the 1400 that drowned in the flood waters or died a slow motion death trapped in baking attics.
2.) The re-election of Mayor Nagin. RHys, this is going to surprise you but Mayor Nagin was the conservative, pro-business laissez faire candidate in the race. He was a good mayor prior to the storm. He was the first mayor in my memory that actually did something to correct the corruption embedded in the City Hall political culture. His opponent was Mitch Landrieu (Sp?). His dad was the last white mayor of NOLA. He was part of an old line political family closely tied to machine politics that had stagnated the city for years. Both men love the city. I am sure of that. Mitch talked a good talk like all the Landrieus but his family never got any results that ever improved the quality of life that I saw. Would he be any different? People did not want to go back to the old ways. I didn't have a horse in this race. Nagin would get us all the derision from the country because how he was shown in the national press. He has serious foot in mouth disease but he is a very charming man and had improved the city in his term. Landrieu would represent us to the outside world better, but would he govern any different from his other family members? It was a very close race, racially divisive in a time we really needed to pull together. Nagin won. Get over it. He was public enemy number one here for about 1 1/2 years (called Na-Gone because he was always off on national talking tours, working on getting the stranded New Orleans home while the people actually already here were deserted and left to their own to pick up the pieces as best they could.) Government has been the enemy of the people of Louisiana ever since, Each branch, local, state and federal, taking turns to see who could make people's life the worst. No leadership at any level. Add the slimy insurance industry to the mix and you have hell itself. People have stuck it out though and the city is returning. It can be tragically hard at times, a roller coaster of emotions from day to day. Katrina has never stopped here since the day the storm hit. Right now I am watching local coverage of a bad rainstorm. Will the pumps work? It has been on for hours now. Do you know who helped the city through the last 20 months more than any government? The New Orleans Saints football team. Pretty sad, huh? But it is the absolute truth.

Thanks, Anonymous.

I'm not going to attack you for re-electing Nagin, just wanted to know why.

From reading the wiki articles and from your take on things, I see a massive effort, hastily assembled under harsh circumstances.

Anonymous,

Thanks for that even-handed recapitulation of the 24 hours before the hurricane hit. Many people with political axes to grind tend to forget all the footage of the long lines of cars leaving NO and the fact that emergency planners always expect a sizable portion of any city's population will not or for some reason cannot evacuate. I have no doubt that much more could have been done; at the same time, I lot was in fact done before the hurricane hit.

I think everyone can agree that New Orleans is built in a really poor place for a city, a shallow strip of land smack dab between two enormous bodies of water. As I said above, it's almost like a city built on the edge of a volcano.

But it is also one of our oldest cities and has a lot of history. Also as I've said above, I lived in NO back in the 80s and enjoyed its hospitality and laid-back ways.

It's a tough call. The Italians have not rebuilt at Pompeii. On the other hand, San Francisco suffered a terrible earthquake and fire in 1906 and was rebuilt and building codes were readjusted to make the city better able to withstand earthquakes and fires.

I imagine that Americans will let the marketplace (in the widest possible sense) decide the future of New Orleans. I predict it will slowly rebuild, but it isn't going to happen overnight and a lot may depend on what Mother Nature herself deals out in the next few years.

Along with RhusLancia, thanks for your comments.

*

This post has been removed by the author.

24,
Thank you for letting me be part of your forum. If you ever make it back to my city, I hope you e-mail me so we can meet for cafe au lait and beignets, or perhaps you will let me take you to dinner. I wish the best for your city. Humans are resilent. At least we both know we are living through historic times! lol! Renewal and rebirth! I am going to the Jazz Fest( http://www.nojazzfest.com/ ) tomorrow to remind myself why we struggle. It is worth it! Before I leave I thought your readers might like to see my city as it is, not as it is in the news. It is a blog written by a New Yorker magazine writer. It has nice videos reports in in. It captures life in the city as it is today, the joy, the pain and the hope.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/neworleansjournal
Thank you again.
Jolie

oh jolie, it is us that should be thanking you! especially for your excellent link

i found this opening day jazz fest youtube video. wish i wa there!

i also found this gulf coast reconstruction blog informative.

ICF's work in Louisiana has come under growing fire. This week, federal Gulf Coast Rebuilding Coordinator Donald Powell wrote a letter urging the company to pick up the pace of payments, noting that it has delivered aid to only 92 homeowners out of 80,000 applicants

i am looking forward to perry's contributions to this post. lets cross our fingers.

i wonder if you noticed this article?

=fwd=

Blackwater Rising
WLS By Chuck Goudie

May 2, 2007 - The world's most controversial security service is now open for business in Illinois. But is Blackwater, Inc. looking to make Illinois an outpost for what has been called the world's largest private army?
This is the same Blackwater that has become the icon for private security services in Iraq. According to critics, Blackwater is nothing more than a corporate warlord, based in North Carolina, with a payroll of hired gunslingers-- hundreds of them now protecting diplomats and contractors in Iraq. Blackwater executives say they and their mission near a rural town south of Rockford are greatly misunderstood-- that to know them is to like them-- and that they want their new neighbors in Illinois to know them. /etc./
link:
http://abclocal.go.com/wls/story?section=investigative&id=5267983

cile, i linked to some articles upthread about blackwater. it is not only the "rural town south of Rockford" they are making a storm outside san diego where they are trying to make a 824 acre training facility in a community that does not want them there. the inside connections to corporate power have infiltrated the zoning commission where the citizens were kept in the dark until lots of plans were pushed thru w/out their participation. it is an ongoing battle you will not be hearing about in the msm, but it is all over the web.

here is another MUST READ article by The former New York Times Mideast Bureau chief titled America’s Holy Warriors

Erik Prince, the secretive, mega-millionaire, right-wing Christian founder of Blackwater, the private security firm that has built a formidable mercenary force in Iraq, champions his company as a patriotic extension of the U.S. military. His employees, in an act as cynical as it is deceitful, take an oath of loyalty to the Constitution. These mercenary units in Iraq, including Blackwater, contain some 20,000 fighters. They unleash indiscriminate and wanton violence against unarmed Iraqis, have no accountability and are beyond the reach of legitimate authority. The appearance of these paramilitary fighters, heavily armed and wearing their trademark black uniforms, patrolling the streets of New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina, gave us a grim taste of the future. It was a stark reminder that the tyranny we impose on others we will one day impose on ourselves.

“Contracting out security to groups like Blackwater undermines our constitutional democracy,” said Michael Ratner, the president of the Center for Constitutional Rights. “Their actions may not be subject to constitutional limitations that apply to both federal and state officials and employees—including First Amendment and Fourth Amendment rights to be free from illegal searches and seizures. Unlike police officers they are not trained in protecting constitutional rights and unlike police officers or the military they have no system of accountability whether within their organization or outside it. These kind of paramilitary groups bring to mind Nazi Party brownshirts, functioning as an extrajudicial enforcement mechanism that can and does operate outside the law. The use of these paramilitary groups is an extremely dangerous threat to our rights."

The politicization of the military, the fostering of the belief that violence must be used to further a peculiar ideology rather than defend a democracy, was on display recently when Air Force and Army generals and colonels, filmed in uniform at the Pentagon, appeared in a promotional video distributed by the Christian Embassy, a radical Washington-based organization dedicated to building a “Christian America.”

it is frightening.

xenophobia and religious freedom

a short video w/a similar argument from above. they even included Omar's position about the korean at virginia tech!

It is a fact, the same administration
and the same contractors are involved in both the Baghdad and the N.O. situations.

Really interesting post. As blighted as Baghdad! I get it because before Katrina, I had spent time in Central America, cities like San Salvador and Managua, devastated by wars, floods, and hurricanes, without funds to rebuild. They are quite destroyed.

When I got back to N.O. after Katrina my first thought was: this reminds me of the destroyed parts of San Salvador.

I wouldn't normally give places in the U.S. credit, so to speak, for being as destroyed as places in poorer countries, but the fact is, N.O. is that destroyed.

The senate just held a hearing on the lack of aid reaching the citizens of Louisiana. One of the people testifying was Connie Uddo, a neighborhood activist (Lakeview) who works for the Beacon of Hope through the Episcopal Church. Listen America. Listen to your fellow citizen.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wx6vNRak7U0&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwetbankguide%2Eblogspot%2Ecom%2F
Anon from NOLA

NOT FAILURE BUT SUCCESS

"Mission accomplished" as they say,
Then after a long pause, a "not,"
"We´re very close, today... today...
Tomorrow will the goal be got."

Tomorrow never comes as children
Repeat the adage fondly, ever
Aware, though it can seem bewildering,
That time´s surge forward ceases never.

So Humpty Dumpty fell that sat
And all the Government´s intention
Failed to repair that egg post-splat,
Prior plans so we cease to mention.

Children know not, that is the way
Adults will play at war--because
Missions may fail, yet words still say
Not failure but success it was.