Omar, i had never heard the term 'nut graph'.

when michale o'hanlon's piece came out, we all know who he is, who he works for and what he was going to say. one thing i think you are wrong, or maybe it is just my illusion...

I don’t get it. How can the Americans be so foolish? Why don’t they ask questions? Why don’t they check the information that is being fed to the?

i think many americans have figured this out. we are being fed a bunch of lies/propaganda.

i know this is just a tiny drop of possible goodness, but i wanted to share..

NI figures boost Iraq peace talks

Representatives of Iraq's Sunni and Shia factions have agreed to consider a series of principles on non-violence after talks involving NI politicians.

we need political solutions, and we need them now.

Ret. Maj. Gen. John Batiste, the former Commanding General of 1st Infantry Division.

As a conservative, I am all for a strong military and setting the conditions for success. America goes to war to win. I am not anti-war and am committed to winning the struggle against world-wide Islamic extremism. But, I am outraged that elected officials of my own party do not comprehend the predicament we are in with a strategy in the Middle East that lacks focus and is all but relying on the military to solve the diplomatic, political, and economic Rubik’s Cube that defines Iraq. Our dysfunctional interagency process in Washington DC lacks leadership and direction. Many conservatives in Congress have allowed the charade to go on for too long.
....

America’s national strategy in Iraq is akin to a four legged stool with legs representing diplomacy, political reconciliation, economic recovery, and the military. The glue holding it all together must be the mobilization of the United States in support of the incredibly important effort to defeat world-wide Islamic extremism. The only leg on the stool of any consequence is the military–it is solid titanium and high performing, the best in the world. After almost six years since September 11, our country is not mobilized behind this important work and the diplomatic, political, and economic legs are not focused and lack leadership. Most Americans now appreciate that the military alone cannot solve the problem in Iraq. In this situation, the stool will surely collapse.
....

replace the troops with far less expensive and much more effective resources–those of diplomacy and the critical work of political reconciliation and economic recovery. In other words, when it comes to Iraq, it’s time for conservatives to once again be conservative.

we have failed iraq, and it is not the fault of the military, it is the absence of appropriate diplomatic/reconciliations efforts and tools. you cannot keep fighting fire w/fire, if you do, you end up w/rage until it extinguishes all life.

iraq needs a serious change of course. i have no certainty this administration is willing to offer this, a working solution. why? if US troops leave, they plan on filling the gap w/mercenaries. why are we willing to offer arms and warriors yet total lack of dignified leadership in diplomacy and conflict resolution OUTSIDE of the military? why?

i guess asking why at juncture is a moot point. somehow, someway, we have to forge a course around the DC elephant. godspeed.

btw, the military censored that site after it published general batiste's op ed. kill the messenger instead of fixing the problem.

god, if you exist, if you are out there, help iraq.

In Ramadi last weekend, I did things unthinkable almost anywhere else in this violent country. I walked through the main souk without body armour, talking to ordinary Iraqis. Late one evening, I strolled into the brightly lit Jamiah district of the city with Lt.-Col. Roger Turner, the tobacco-chewing U.S. marine in charge of central Ramadi, to buy kebabs from an outdoor restaurant -- "It's safer than London or New York," Col. Turner assured me.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/story.html?id=fb24ec6a-4eef-43da-825e-801047e73bb7

Sorry,links don't appear to work here. The point of the story above is that Ramadi is safe. Some journalist ARE meeting ordinary Iraqis on the streets. If you'd like to read the story just google American martyr and Ramadi.

Excellent piece, 24. It seems to me that the US is trying to assert control over the Iraqi Anbaris by co-opting them into militia groups against the wishes of Maliki at al. Not that I'd give Maliki the time of day, personally, but wasn't Iraq a 'sovereign' country?

Second point: I see mounting evidence of a US strike on Iran. I fear that the current US efforts to make friends with those it previously characterised as evil terrorists a cynical attempt to set up a US counter-force to Iranian proxies such as Badr. (Or at the least to gain leverage against Maliki)

In practice, what this means is that Iraqis will kill each other on a sectarian basis on behalf of foreign powers, yet again, when the Iran-US clash breaks out.

These foreign meddlers must get lost at the soonest, all of them.

24, it appears Juan Cole is saying something very similar to what you are:

http://www.juancole.com/2007/09/on-how-al-anbar-isnt-that-safe-and-on.html

"Now the 'good news' appears (I swear to God) to be that you can "walk" in Iraq. That's the good news. The 8 billion people in the world walk every day, in most of the world's locales. Now it is an achievement to walk. That's good news of the highest order. Only, if you are American in Fallujah you might need a company of Marines with you so that you can . . . walk. (See below). Is al-Anbar Province really paradise, as Bush suggested?"

Read the rest here:

Sigh...more propaganda...No one said "Anbar is safe." The point of the Bush trip to Anbar was to show that progress had been made in the formerly al Qaeda controlled Anbar province. It was further an effort to force Maliki to deal with Sunni interests and to express a desire for reconciliation.

How would anyone think that the message from the news was "anbar is safe"?

More lies from the anti-American guys...

Sigh...more propaganda... The point of the Bush trip to Anbar was to show that progress had been made

yes.. we know that was the point of the presidents 6 hr trip to iraq.

As the Bush administration prepares to present its version of "progress" associated with the president's troop surge that began seven months ago, independent assessments show the surge has failed to catalyze political developments necessary for the country's future.

The Los Angeles Times reports that Iraq's parliament has passed none of the major legislation Washington had expected it to approve. The 28,500 additional troops who have filed into the country since February also have failed to substantially decrease civilian deaths in Iraq, and more Iraqis are fleeing their homes now than before the surge began.

We all know that its in Annie and Bruno's best interest for the surge to "fail." Whether or not the progress that has been made in Anbar as the result of the surge or not is not really relevant to the overall goal of bringing peace to Iraq. However, if Anbar has been "subdued" to some degree, if you want to call it that, it's worthy to address how and why it has happened, and how it can be replicated in other parts of the country to help bring stability.

“ ‘It's safer than London or New York,’ Col. Turner assured me.”

That’s sick. That’s just humiliating the Iraqis and the American troops in Iraq. I can’t believe they go this far.

If it is safer than New York, why don’t they go and eat Kebab in the best Kebab restaurant in Iraq? Ohh, because it is still a rubble, since it was leveled in late 2004.

Why don’t they provide the people there with electricity so they can see the deference? Ohh, because they cannot. It is not safe to be in the streets after all!

“Late one evening, I strolled into the brightly lit Jamiah district of the city.” Did he ask himself how it was “brightly lit?” NO< because he didn’t care to do some reporting!

It was brightly lit because people pay a shit load of money every month to get 5 or 10 amps of electricity from the nearby neighbor generator.

Enough of the bullshit. And stop believing everything without questioning to get the truth. If you want to see it for yourself, and because you really believe it is safe there, why don’t you go there and do “unthinkable almost anywhere else in this violent country.” You should walk “through the main souk without body armour” and talk to “ordinary Iraqis.” And then come back and write your report. I’m telling you now, I will believe you blindly, like what you do!

Well, it seems that Bush is getting the message from very nervous Republicans in the House and Senate that it is time to start withdrawing troops from Iraq. But, what sort of mess is he planning to leave behind? Does he even care?

The "surge" has dampened the violence in some parts of Iraq, but it has increased in other unsurged areas. Bush's military-only bag of solutions has not really solved any of Iraq's fundamental problems. There has been no reconciliation, and there has been no effective diplomacy with the major regional players: Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc.

Bush is getting ready to declare victory, but who will be the victors? It seems that the Iraqi people will not be on that list.

"“ ‘It's safer than London or New York,’ Col. Turner assured me.”
That’s sick. That’s just humiliating the Iraqis and the American troops in Iraq. I can’t believe they go this far."

Why is it "humiliating"? They are trying to get people to believe in Iraq again. It serves no one to constantly focus on everything negative going on in the country. Creating the impression that Iraq is stable will help bring people back, create jobs, create resourcefulness, create confidence in the country that YOU abandoned.

And how do YOU know its worse than New York or London? I can believe that, but it probably depends on what part of New York or London you are talking about, and what part of Anbar you are talking about.

Maybe YOU should start questioning your leaders who tell you Iraq is nothing but an abyss of death and destruction. If that was really the case, there wouldn't be anyone left after 5 years of this.

The reality is, there are still people there. There are many who have not abandoned Iraq, and who still live and work and play in the country.

You should be ashamed for giving up.

people need to face reality. quit blaming people who are telling the truth!

They are trying to get people to believe in Iraq again. It serves no one to constantly focus on everything negative going on in the country.

their job is to report what is happening. NOT have an agenda. it does serve people to find out the truth. if what is going on is negative, their job is to report that. reality, events as they happened, are not an opportunity to spin some picture that is supposed to 'serve' us. shall we all play pretend like anyone believes this stuff and is going to go running back to a hell hole expecting jobs and a decent safe place? this is crazy.

david. there will be a drawdown of troops prior to the election. that is practically a done deal. that is what they care about, winning the election. we are spending over 3 billion a week in iraq and the supplimental funding bill is coming up after petreaus (WH) report asking for another 50 billion and that is what all this is about. a huge percentage of that 50 billion goes right into the pockets of cheney's friends, distributed by people who sit on the appropriations commitee, many of those contracts were established early on, thru duke cunningham who is sitting in jail right now. the DA scandle errupted partly over looking into the firing of lam (dukes prosecutor, payback), the prosecuter from san diego who had just indicted dusty foggo, 2nd in command @cia, good buds w/cunningham and wilkes. this is the stories we don't hear about in the news. the abromoff scandle, all of this.. we are supposed to think about paris hilton and the 'progress' of anbar, which was all started as pushback against this al baghdadi fake character, and excuse me for being such a sceptic but who funded this non person and his islamic state inside iraq?

they start killing our enemies, then we kiss and make up w/our enemies and now we have progress? gee, sounds like someone invented this for a hollywood movie. maybe they did. sure, i'm so horrible for thinking this but, excuse me, isn't that what they do at think tanks? figure out ways to support their government programs (they are saving for their own paradise island in dubai) thru war funding and so what how many iraqis die. as long as we don't get 'blamed'. ok,so its AQI now. being fought by LRI. cool, we have more acronyms.

'scolar' michael o'hanlon has another report in this good for nothing fishwrap that everyone keeps telling us is 'liberal' but since judy miller went to jail instead of spill the beans on her white house liason now everybody knows the nyt is just the place the WH stenographers publish.

anyway, he keeps telling us things like death is down and things are up and contradicts himself by mentioning august is the deadliest month but we have a graph saying may is worse, and one thing we all know, him and bill the bloody (kristol, weekly standard) are ALWAYS going to be telling us things are moving in a forward direction.

Overall, civilian fatality rates are down perhaps one third since late 2006

this is in the same 'deadliest month' article. 'perhaps' is the operative catch word here guys. its perhaps 1/3 less, but then again, depending on how we read the chart, it is perhaps worse!

this is a marketing campaign. we are being sold on the war. the public are consumers and it their job to brainwash us. it has nothing to do w/the truth. we are simply useful idiots who are not supposed to question anything. the reason the US doesn't promote diplomacy is because there is no money in it.

this is a long haul operation

fryin' freddie kagan, AEI surge architect just told us the anbar awakening should be hailed as important as the gettysburg address!

"people need to face reality. quit blaming people who are telling the truth!"

Exactly. So you should accept the reality that Iraq is not the complete disaster that you make it out to be. YOUR agenda is to focus on the negative in an effort to get the US to leave. OF COURSE, you want people to believe that everything that has gone wrong in Iraq is the fault of the US. Of course, YOU want people to believe that there is no hope for Iraq and that it is a wasteland.

I don't believe that. I think Iraq has all the potential in the world to become a great nation once again...in spite of what you say.

you should,

you make ,

YOUR agenda,

OF COURSE, you want

Of course, YOU want ,

YOU want,

in spite of what you say.



krytpt and strawman up in the tree.

K-I-S-S-I-N-G

first comes lies

then comes cover up

then comes results. do you like them? i guess iraq isn't so bad FOR YOU because ....you say so......

this isn't a popularity contest krypt. you may want to address reality.

Iraq is not the complete disaster that you make it out to be.

5 years. 5 years and a million dead. a sectarian government that is oozing corruption. massive fraud w/contractors entangling many members of our armed forces who are exhausted and overextended.

the solution? no end in sight.

when the troops come home they will be replaced by the private army cheney has been crossing his fingers for.

for what? for benchmarks that strangle iraq into a state of permanent servitude?

in all this there is a winner so far. there are people w/billion dollar profits.

we could all pretend that anbar is in better shape now than it was before the invasion. but it isn't!

this sucks! it sucks more and more every single day.

"this sucks! it sucks more and more every single day."

well, the people you claim are fighting FOR iraq are the ones making it suck. Without them, Iraq would be well on its way to Dubai like status.

Not that you care, as your personal agenda is to ensure Iraq's misery in an effort to undermine the US.

State of permanent servitude? Like Japan? Like Germany?

It sucks, yes. But it sucks because of people like you who don't want iraq to progress.

24,

Sorry, just a quick comment. It's the end of the day and I don't have time to look for my substantiation. Will try to get back and do that tomorrow.

Anyway, according to our troops on the ground in Ramadi they are working on getting the glass factory back up and running. Although I have no details on how much work that will entail or how long it will be.

And the blockades and concertina wire have been removed in at least some areas. I, of course, am not there so cannot speak for the entire town.

And if there are brightly lit areas at night, it may be because of solar street lights. I think Ramadi was the town they were installing those in. Have to check on that.

Far too many people--- Iraqi bloggers in particular---- have far too much invested in chaos for anything resembling progress to be acceptable. It has become their reason for being and any success that could be attributed in part to American efforts is threatening to their reason. It must be attacked, refuted, ignored, as is exemplified by 24 in this latest effort.

Find me ONE evidence of some progress made in Iraq that Iraqis can feel and benefit from, and I will devote four posts here to talk about it and encourage and will spare no effort to call people in Iraq and interview and quote them talking about it. Find me ONE and I will take it from there.
And for your information, I am one of the very few Iraqis who still believe that the war was worth it and that we can still succeed, if another strategy was followed. One that include Iraqis from the inside in the making of Iraq. I am considered “pro-American.” You can imagine how the rest feel!

"I am one of the very few Iraqis who still believe that the war was worth it and that we can still succeed"

That's just crap. The alternative to a U.S. invasion was more of Saddam,and then more of Uday or Qusay. Sunnis tried to make life unbearable for Iraqis,to get them to yearn for Saddam's return. What they failed to understand is,most Iraqis would rather die than have the Saddamites back. Sure,a lot of bloggers want Iraq to eat shit and die. A lot of those bloggers are sunnis with a sectarian agenda. They make up a very small fraction of Iraq.

For those wondering how Ramadi could be brightly lit. Yes,they have solar street lights. They also have electricity most of the time. Ditto for Mosul,Basra,and dozens of other cities across Iraq. Electricity can't be controlled from Baghdad any more.

A scummy dictatorship was overthrown - that is major progress. Shoulda happened in 1991.

Sunni Arab tribes in Anbar have expelled Al Qaeda - major progress.

Sadr has declared a ceasefire and there's less sectarian violence, which is progress.

I agree with Anonymous@4:15 pm and perry1961.

Correcting the GAO

-Throughout all of Iraq, since the height of the ethno-sectarian violence in December 2006 until the end of August 2007, the overall number of civilian casualties (killed and wounded) has dropped 71 percent. Just counting civilian deaths, by any means, the numbers are even more dramatic, with a 74 percent drop since December 2006.

-Ethno-sectarian deaths (e.g., AQI [al Qaeda in Iraq] bombing Kurds or Shi’a Arabs or Turkmen or Yezidis, etc., or JAM [Jaish al-Mahdi led by Moqtada al-Sadr] killing of Sunnis, etc.) in all of Iraq are down to less than one half of levels at the height of the violence last December.

-Attacks of any type in Anbar Province have gone from a high in October 2006 of more than 1350 per month to fewer than 250 per month now.

-The number of ammunition and explosive caches found has risen from a total of 2726 in 2006 to over 4350 this year (through the end of August).

-Overall incidents of violence against any target (ISF [Iraqi Security Forces], CF [Coalition Forces], civilian) in Iraq are down from a high of 1700 per week when we started the surge of operations in mid-June 2007 to fewer than 960 per week now. Overall incidents have declined in eight of the past eleven weeks. Last week’s number of incidents was the lowest in over a year.

-High profile attacks (car bomb, suicide car bomb, and suicide vest attacks) nationwide are down from a high in March 2007 of more than 170 per month to 88 in August.

-Since the intent of the surge was to secure Baghdad, which is the political heart of Iraq, here are some statistics focused on the ten security districts that comprise Baghdad from December 2006 to the end of August 2007:

-Car bomb attacks: 44 in December 2006, nineteen in August 2007 for a 57 percent drop.

-All IED’s [improvised explosive devices]: 240 in December 2006, 203 in August 2007 for a 15 percent drop.

-Explosive belts (Suicide vests): two in December 2006, zero in August 2007.

-Mortar and Rocket Attacks: 139 in December 2006, 98 in August 2007 for a 29 percent drop.

-Dead civilians (not just ethno-sectarian violence, but all categories): 2193 in December 2006, 575 in August 2007 for a 74 percent drop.

-Wounded civilians: 876 in December 2006, 302 in August 2007 for a 66 percent drop.

-Dead Iraqi security forces: 44 in December 2006, twenty in August 2007 for a 45 percent drop.

-Wounded Iraqi security forces: 136 in December 2006, 61 in August 2007 for a 55 percent drop.

-575 dead in Baghdad in August from all causes is still excessively high and we continue to work to drive down the violence. Nonetheless, by all of these measures there has been progress in bringing greater security to Baghdad.

Sheesh, 24!

The Marines only drove Al-Qaeda out of Ramadi in March after 3 deadly battles. Naturally the whole of Anbar should look like Paris already, right?

I'm sorry the Anbaris suffered under the insurgency and Al-Qaeda. I guess they shouldn't have turned their backs on the elections, invited Al-Qaeda with open arms, and squandered 4 years shooting at soldiers, blowing up Shi'a mosques (during prayer) and kidnapping NGOs who were trying to build up their country.

They've suffered under the same sort of rejectionism that YOU'VE been poisoned by since your choice got trounced in the December 2005 elections.

The Anbaris have finally awakened. They've gotten a clue. When will you do the same?

24: "Find me ONE evidence of some progress made in Iraq that Iraqis can feel and benefit from, and I will devote four posts here to talk about it and encourage and will spare no effort to call people in Iraq and interview and quote them talking about it. Find me ONE and I will take it from there."

Dude, you dropped your gauntlet.

~~ picks it up, brushes it off, hands it back to Omar ~~

Does this count?

THE CLEAN STREETS OF FALLUJA

excerpt:

"I vividly remember hitting the streets of Iraq -- not a FOB, the streets of Ar Ramadi -- for the very first time. We dismounted to help sweep a suspected cache last October. One of the things that struck me was the smell and the horrendous amounts of garbage laying all over the place.
...

Then he talks about a recent visit to Falluja:

"What was amazing to me though was how clean the city has become. As you can see from the top picture, the street in front of the shop is quite clean.

The second picture shows Fallujan's getting out and taking care of their city. There were hundreds of young men out working on crews that were hauling garbage and refuse away. Even some of my more skeptical Soldiers had to admit that we were witnessing quite a change."

OK?

If you're annie or Bruno or another like-minded propagandist (and I don't think you are), you'll have no trouble finding a quote from some op-ed from an Iraqi in Syria or Jordan that "debunks" this story completely, i.e. that those were indentured Filipino contractors or something who swept a single street in advance of (and because of) that Milblogger's visit.

But let's see what you come up with.

CMAR II: "Naturally the whole of Anbar should look like Paris already, right?"

Why would he want that? Paris has rats... that can cook!!

Iraqi Mojo,
Tell your crap to the Iraqis who have to stay inside their houses to stay alive, and not even safe. They expect to be killed any time of the day by supporters of your progress. Where the hell do you get your analysis from?

Wake up crapers. Iraqis are dying by thousands every month.

-Throughout all of Iraq, since the height of the ethno-sectarian violence in December 2006 until the end of August 2007, the overall number of civilian casualties (killed and wounded) has dropped 71 percent.

according to max's unsigned 'letter' on some blog???? please.

i can't believe you guys are denying how bad this war is. are you so blind to think you can paint some rosy picture of progress?

i'm so sorry Omar. all i can say is there are many many people who do understand how bad it is. i can't pretend to know what it must be like to have this happening to my country. it must be really terrible to have a sense everything is out of control.

there are people all over the world praying for iraqis. i know i am. i wish to god someone would just take charge who could unite people w/out violence. i know that sounds corny but we need a meeting of the minds.

thank you for continuing to communicate with us. i know it must be hard when people are attacking you. i have noticed since i started reading your blog you have shown, many times, many many times, much more faith in my government than i have. still, we must all speak our minds.

don't let the personal attacks deter you from expressing your thoughts. always listen to your instincts no matter what journey they take you on. don't doubt yourself. lead.

yeah rhus, i heard about fallujah. it will be real quiet and safe there when everyone is dead.

yer writer eric coulsen sure does seem to have a lot of time on his hands, for a soldier. very prolific writer. why just in the last week be has really been hitting the keyboards.

problems just keep mounting IRAQ: Violence taking toll on pregnant mothers, infants

“For at least two women in every 12 who seek emergency delivery assistance here, either the mother or her child dies,” Dr Ibrahim Khalil, a gynaecologist at Al-Karada maternity hospital, said.

“Mothers are usually anaemic and children are born underweight as a result of a poor nutrition and lack of pre-natal care,”

Save the Children show that in 1990 the mortality rate for under-fives was 50 per 1,000 live births. In 2005 it was 125.

genocide is happening, and you can't hide it.

"Tell your crap to the Iraqis who have to stay inside their houses to stay alive, and not even safe. They expect to be killed any time of the day by supporters of your progress. Where the hell do you get your analysis from?"

It's not my crap and it's not my progress. The lives of Iraqis are still miserable, but the situation seems to be improving. You asked for evidence of progress, and I quoted a post from a blog that has documented progress in the last few months.

annie: "yeah rhus, i heard about fallujah. it will be real quiet and safe there when everyone is dead."

The people cleaning the streets looked alive enough to me.

What? Are you hoping & praying that one of your Resistance-aligned AQ heroes will come along & slaughter them with a truck bomb? Wouldn't surprise me if you were.

I don't know why you say you want Iraq to pull out of it on the one hand, but then scramble to dismiss any evidence that they are starting to, on the other hand. Why don't you let 24 debunk that, as he promised to? Simply linking to Eric's milblog and accusing him of writing a lot is weak, even for you.

You'd be happier if the streets were dirty and they were unemployed? Or what? That is the conclusion strongly implied by your response, but I do not want to put words at your fingers if that's not what you mean.

It's good that annie and others here point to all the problems in Iraq - there is definitely room for improvement, and I look forward to the days when Iraqis are again free to shop without fear of being kidnapped or murdered. But I'm surprised that they attack people who report the good news coming out of Iraq. It's as if we are not allowed to report any good news from Iraq as long as there is any bad news.

Bad news IS good news to them, Mojo.

the situation seems to be improving.

you don't say

By David H. Petraeus circa 04

there are reasons for optimism.

so i've heard

I'm surprised that they attack people who report the good news coming out of Iraq.

attack? merely pointing out that mojos reference to a 71% drop in civilian deaths was posted anonymously on a blog is not an attack. pointing out that 'good news' stories coming from soldiers who seem to write enough for any sane person to consider he is assigned to the propaganda division is not an attack, just realistic observation.

one hardly expects Omar to respond to the assertions of blogging soldiers? after all, he probably knows some people on the ground in iraq. ya think?

Bad news IS good news to them

is that all you have to say. go into your closet and chant anbar 1000 times. i'm sure it will perk you up.

[24] "If it is safer than New York, why don’t they go and eat Kebab in the best Kebab restaurant in Iraq? Ohh, because it is still a rubble, since it was leveled in late 2004."

I remember that. That was a restaurant in Fallujah, wasn't it? A lot of Iraqis were angry about that.

[24] "If you want to see it for yourself, and because you really believe it is safe there, why don’t you go there and do “unthinkable almost anywhere else in this violent country.” You should walk “through the main souk without body armour” and talk to “ordinary Iraqis.”"

LOL! Somehow, I don't think any of the tough guys that think Iraq is now a paradise would take up your offer. Gosh, what if they took a wrong turn? Or if the 300 Marines that would be guarding them lost sight of them for an instant?

[24] "And for your information, I am one of the very few Iraqis who still believe that the war was worth it and that we can still succeed, if another strategy was followed. One that include Iraqis from the inside in the making of Iraq. I am considered “pro-American.” You can imagine how the rest feel!" [ea]

Eloquently put, 24.

[kr] "You should be ashamed for giving up."

24 isn't giving up. I don't think he is the sort of person that ever gives up. I think he's just tired of the political bullshit that drives the ludicrous and fantastic "good news stories" that get churned out in order to shore up the Bush position as and when the situation demands it. The stream of "rebuilding Iraq" stories comes to mind here, making out that the multi-billion-dollar US 'reconstruction' was refurbishing the country like new, whereas in fact we know today that the situation is even worse than under Saddam.

[24] "I am one of the very few Iraqis who still believe that the war was worth it and that we can still succeed"
[perry] “That's just crap.”

Oh, alright, then, the war wasn’t worth it and Iraq can’t succeed. Have it your way. :lol:

[perry] “The alternative to a U.S. invasion was more of Saddam,and then more of Uday or Qusay.”

Saddam? Wasn’t that the guy the US put in power in the first place? Wasn’t that the guy that was a great hero until his usefulness had expired? You see, Perry, the problem with America is that it looks out for its own interests and not the interests of the people of the nations it messes around with. The more the US plays its games, the more people suffer. The invasion has destroyed Iraq, something not even Saddam managed. If America had not interfered, Iraqis would never have had to endure his rule in the first place.

[perry] “They also have electricity most of the time. Ditto for Mosul,Basra,and dozens of other cities across Iraq. Electricity can't be controlled from Baghdad any more.”

ROTFL! I have to wonder now, are you being deliberately sneaky, or don’t you know WHY this is so? The reason some provinces have 24 hour electricity is that the LOCAL MILITIAS control the supply. You’re right: the government doesn’t have a say. I find it amazing that you are celebrating the breakdown of the central control of the state of Iraq in this fashion.

[cmar2] “I'm sorry the Anbaris suffered under the insurgency and Al-Qaeda.”

I’m sorry that the Anbaris have to endure the brutal American occupation, which brought these ills to Iraq.

[cmar2] “I guess they shouldn't have turned their backs on the elections,”

Under occupation …

[cmar2] “invited Al-Qaeda with open arms,”

Uh, yeah, that was the AMERICAN PLAN to lure Al Qaeda to Iraq, remember? The Flypaper Strategy? Better to fight them there than to fight them here? Remember? No?

I find it amazing that the US removes all vestiges of law and order, collapses the government, and THEN we get yanks like CMAR2 blaming * Iraqis * for not being able to stem the flow of criminals and jihadis to their country.

[cmar2] “and squandered 4 years shooting at soldiers”

Uh, yes, that’s what happens when you invade people, CMAR. That’s what happens when you pillage and murder your way across a country. You didn’t know? Gosh, well, now you do.

[cmar2] “The Anbaris have finally awakened. They've gotten a clue.”

Really? I guess that the irony of America courting the same “Baathists, dead-enders and terrorists” that you were ostensibly in Iraq to fight in the first place eludes you.



[rhus] “clean streets”

Well … I can’t say you didn’t try. Too bad that the rest of the city is flattened, though. But that shouldn’t detract from the amazing progress that the US has achieved, in picking up some litter. THAT was worth a couple of billion in reconstruction funds, at least.




[annie] “go into your closet and chant anbar 1000 times. i'm sure it will perk you up.”

LOL!

Iraq is doing much better than some here suggest. Putting your heads in the sand,and wishing for more doom and gloom won't change that. Kurdistan has been peaceful and booming for some years now. Anbar renounced Al Qaida and embraced the central government. Former Sunni insurgents are joining the army and IP's. Southern Iraq is also booming. Unrest there is largely a matter of which Shia faction will control various enterprises. When is the last time a caravan was slaughtered passing through the "triangle of death"? Anyone?
Sure,there will always be bad news to point to. That goes for any country. Watching the nightly news in the U.S. is enough to make anyone throw up their hands. Fact is,Iraq has made a lot of progress in a few short months. The debate in the U.S. is no longer about withdrawing troops. It has turned to how many troops,and for how many years. Wake up Annie.

i'm awake all right

"I know this will sound crazy coming from a Naval officer", she said. "But we’re all just waiting for this administration to end. Things that happen at the senior officer level seem more and more to happen outside of the purview of XOs and other officers who typically have a say-so in daily combat and flight operations. Today, orders just come down from the mountaintop and there’s no questioning. In fact, there is no discussing it. I have seen more than one senior commander disappear and then three weeks later we find out that he has been replaced. That’s really weird. It’s also really weird because everyone who has disappeared has questioned whether or not we should be staging a massive attack on Iran."

"We’re not stupid. Most of the members of the fleet read well enough to know what is going on world-wise. We also realize that anyone who has any doubts is in danger of having a long military career yanked out from under them. Keep in mind that most of the people I serve with are happy to be a part of the global war on terror. It’s just that the touch points are what we see since we are the ones out here who are supposedly implementing this grand strategy. But when you liason with administration officials who don’t know that Iranians don’t speak Arabic and have no idea what Iranians live like, then you start having second thoughts about whether these Administration officials are even competent."

I asked her about the attack, how limited and so forth.

"I don’t think it’s limited at all. We are shipping in and assigning every damn Tomahawk we have in inventory. I think this is going to be massive and sudden, like thousands of targets. I believe that no American will know when it happens until after it happens.

good morning everyone

24,

Sorry, no time to read all of the comments. So I don't know if I'm copying what someone else may have already posted.

Progress as reported by one of our soldiers:

23 August 2007
New Glass

Road trip from Camp Ramadi to Camp Falluja. Again. But this trip is different. Down Michigan, through Ar Ramadi, through Habbinyah, and through Al Falluja - in HUMVEES. Pathfinder 6 and I are escorting journalist Bill Schaefer to the Camp to meet with Team Badger Soldiers so he can give you his version of their story.

Out the South gate we turn left and head for the bridge that will take us into Ar Ramadi. Past the glass factory on our left that had only recently been cleared of snipers when we arrived last October, it now has people moving about it trying to get in back into operation.

On my right the urban area becomes more apparent, the HESCOs and concrete barriers removed to open the area up. An IP station built. The IP's going about their business and wave at us.

We pass Hurricane Point and turn east cross the trestled bridge across the Euphrates River.

We descend off the bridge and that's when you notice the change. When we arrived here the main broad boulevard that traverse the east-west route through the city, with the broad sidewalks had been narrowed down to two and sometimes one lane by concrete barriers, concertina, and debris.

Today the boulevard is wide open and people are walking the streets. Women in abayah's, men in dishdasha, soccer attire, and a few in suits talking on their cell phones. Some people ignore our small convoy, some look suspiciously, and some wave.

There at the first corner, I see it. New glass. Someone has put new glass in a shop. Someone only installs new glass when they think it won't get broken. New glass is confidence.

As we roll though Ramadi I see more stores and small shops open. And more new glass.

We pass what was once a hotel. I am sure the building is so badly damaged that it will need to be razed. I wonder if a hotel will replace it.

Halfway into the city we reach Saddam's Mosque. The area is still a shambles here, but the road has opened up. There are also front end loaders and other heavy equipment moving the concrete and the rebar. Progress has been made, but it will take awhile to truck this away and start rebuilding.

Out of the city we pass the Al Anbar Law College on the left. More "de-milling" (de-militarization) has taken place and you can see the college a little better. There are green patches of manicured lawn there. I wonder if I can come back here and teach a class on business organizations some day.

Once on the open road the drive is uneventful. The green of Hab is waining in the late, dry summer. Even the Euphrates River cannot keep it completely green year round. I think of the children I have given candy and soccer balls to in the area. We have not been called to patrol the area in months.

Entering Falluja requires navigating the sea of people trying to get in. The requirement that you park your vehicle outside the city and walk in creates a tangle at the entry points. We get in the military lane and slowly pull through.

Crossing the Euphrates once again we are in the city of Al Falluja. Having read Bing West's book, No True Glory, I identify all sorts of places where Phantom Fury played out less than three years ago. And there it is again. New glass. Stores and residences that still bear the scars of that battle are also being rebuilt.

The citizens of the city are going out their business, shopping, cleaning the city, building.

Out of the city we pass the memorial to Lieutenant Colonel Suliemen, Hero of Iraq, murdered in Falluja by the insurgency back in 2004.

A few more kilometers down we turn right and are in Camp Falluja.

Several days later we return to Ar Ramadi. We take the western highway this time which takes us north and around the city of Falluja. The north and east sides of Falluja are the most devastated. That is the direction from which US Forces attacked during Phantom Fury in November 2004.

As we round the northeast corner, I see one house that looks different from the others. People are living there. Coming and going. It has something the other places don't.

New Glass.

ah yes lynn, we have already been treated to one of eric coulsen's posts. that guy really gets around.

pointing out that 'good news' stories coming from soldiers who seem to write enough for any sane person to consider he is assigned to the propaganda division is not an attack, just realistic observation.

"attack? merely pointing out that mojos reference to a 71% drop in civilian deaths was posted anonymously on a blog is not an attack."

Actually the statistics were posted on a web site called 'contentions' - if you click on the link you'll see the contributors on the right. I commend you for not attacking me, annie, but you are denying these stats, no?

"pointing out that 'good news' stories coming from soldiers who seem to write enough for any sane person to consider he is assigned to the propaganda division is not an attack, just realistic observation."

Again, the authors are not soldiers. If you had opened the article you might have learned that, but somehow I doubt it.


"one hardly expects Omar to respond to the assertions of blogging soldiers? after all, he probably knows some people on the ground in iraq. ya think?"

One last time: they aren't soldiers. Omar didn't just "respond" to "assertions" - he called it my "crap". The "assertions" are just observations of statistics that show a drop in violence, that's all. No reason to get your panties in a twist. Don't worry annie, Omar - Iraq is still a mess, and we do not deny that.

Lynnette, we aren't allowed to quote soldiers here. In fact we aren't allowed to quote anybody who claims that progress has been made in Iraq. Iraqis are dying by the thousands every month, and that is all we're allowed to write about.

I wonder if I can come back here and teach a class on business organizations some day.

nice touch.


Lynnette, we aren't allowed to quote soldiers here.

sure we are mojo! i posted a good one below! i was just thinking if we are going to be holding Omar to his offer, we might rely on reports that require a little more vetting than a blog.


Author Stan Goff, a retired 26-year veteran of the U.S. Army Special Forces

We need to ask ourselves, however, what sowing the winds of war abroad will reap at home. They are not Arabs who are painting Aryan Nations graffiti on the shattered walls of Baghdad.

a good read, i recommend. it doesn't included any of eric's references to little patches of cut grass (nice symbolism btw) but it has value. especially for some insight into special forces ;)
(thats little smiley face is for ms minnie)

Oh yeah! We are allowed to quote soldiers who write about American fascism and the mess we've gotten ourselves into in Iraq. But any claims of progress in Iraq (made by soldiers, journalists, or bloggers) are merely assertions! LOL!

we aren't allowed to quote anybody who claims that progress has been made in Iraq. Iraqis are dying by the thousands every month, and that is all we're allowed to write about.

actually, you may want to check out this link before you blather on this strawman theme.

If you had opened the article you might have learned that

dude, i took the time to find your link. if you cared why don't you just link to it. i looked for a link to this persons. i will go back there and check out your source, again. if you cared, why not just link to it. i take the time to link to my posts. don't go chastizing me for not checking out all the links on righthand colums of you non links?

btw, it is rude to make reference to anyones panties so keep your insults cleaner, at least when referring to me.

mojo, you may want to actually read the link before you criticize it. i was addressing your 'allowed' BS. we are 'allowed' to quote any soldier we want as long as it stays in the confines of the ethic rules.

there is a difference between posting your propaganda 'everything is coming up roses' stories than expecting them to be used to hold Omar to his challenge which so far, no one has come close.

annie: "we might rely on reports that require a little more vetting than a blog."

What's this then? And why did you post an excerpt from DaliyKos above? Can you get any more biased than that.

Annie, Eric is a soldier. In Iraq. In Anbar. Writing about what he sees, and including pictures.

Guilty as charged.

So, is it true that he's seeing "less trash" and "new glass", or not? But I'm not asking you. I'm asking 24. Now, all 24 has to do is call 4 Iraqis who will tell him there is still trash in Fallujah (which Eric also said), and this story will be "debunked" in your mind for evermore, and you can go back to dreaming of perpetual chaos in Iraq and vetting your news from crooksandliars.com.

"dude, i took the time to find your link. if you cared why don't you just link to it. i looked for a link to this persons. i will go back there and check out your source, again. if you cared, why not just link to it. i take the time to link to my posts. don't go chastizing me for not checking out all the links on righthand colums of you non links?"


annie, look for the white link under "At 7:16 PM, Iraqi Mojo" called "Correcting the GAO" Here I'll do it again: Correcting the GAO

Actually the statistics were posted on a web site called 'contentions' - if you click on the link you'll see the contributors on the right.

mojo. here is the sitecontentions this is what i was referencing when i stated was posted anonymously on a blog

here is what he says "I put that question to a friend of mine, an officer currently serving in Baghdad. As he explains below in this email"

only the email is not signed. it doesn't name the officer. just dear max and then a bunch of CONTENTIONS. do you know what the word contentions means? if these figures were officially posited by the military, let them publish them and take the heat. the miitary has already stated it only tracks deaths of civilians that have been officially reported in some fashion and civilian deaths don't included collateral damage of people who are 'harboring' terroroists which is a very broad stroke in iraq. even little babies like in haditha are acceptable targets.

anyway, your 'story', anyone could have written that. let him identify this soldier w/the statistics. why keep it anonymous.

"there is a difference between posting your propaganda 'everything is coming up roses' stories than expecting them to be used to hold Omar to his challenge which so far, no one has come close."

annie, the statistics I quoted do not claim that 'everything is coming up roses.' It shows a drop in violence, that's all.

"Annie, Eric is a soldier. In Iraq. In Anbar. Writing about what he sees, and including pictures."

Apparently soldiers who write about the progress they've observed are lying, and the soldiers who write about American fascism are telling the truth!

mojo I put that question to a friend of mine, an officer currently serving in Baghdad. As he explains below in this email

dear annie,

We disagree with the methodology the GAO uses to calculate its statistics, and we told them so during their short visit here last month. As you note, the GAO statistics differ considerably from the data we have for the same periods.

-Throughout all of Iraq, since the height of the ethno-sectarian violence in December 2006 until the end of August 2007, the overall number of civilian casualties (killed and wounded) has dropped 1000 percent. Just counting civilian deaths, by any means, the numbers are even more dramatic, with a 100000 percent drop since December 2006.

sign anonymous

gee mojo, my friend has different statistics than max's

here's another military friend i wrote and ask.

dear annie,

-Throughout all of Iraq, since the height of the ethno-sectarian violence in December 2006 until the end of August 2007, the overall number of civilian casualties (killed and wounded) has increased 10 fold. Just counting civilian deaths, by any means, the numbers are even more dramatic, with a 1000 percent increase since December 2006.

signed , anonymous

there, all better now. ps

Our methodology and numbers have been scrubbed thoroughly by the intelligence community and declared by the intel community the best available measures and data.

except the military is not in charge of our national intellegence estimate. the nei is. that is what they specialize in, so frankly, i will just go w/their original assessment, even tho the WH and mr pet recently had a sit down w/them getting them to REVISE their intellegence before publication.

This post has been removed by a blog administrator.

Apparently soldiers who write about the progress they've observed are lying

why don't you check out my "so i've heard' link @ my 12:06 am post from yesterday.

Psychological Operations (PSYOP) soldiers use persuasion to influence perceptions and encourage desired behavior.
...

Psychological Operations units also have soldiers with unique skills. These soldiers are communicators who provide the commander with the ability to communicate information to large audiences via radio, television, leaflets and loudspeakers. The PSYOP soldier's language skills, regional orientation and knowledge of communication media provide a means of delivering critical information to host-nation audiences.
.....

The AC forces are organized under the 4th Psychological Operations Group with four regionally oriented battalions, a tactical support battalion, and a PSYOP dissemination battalion.
.....

PSYOP personnel can print on foreign presses and broadcast from surrogate stations in theater. The PSYOP Dissemination Battalion also provides many non- PSYOP specific support service to the PSYOP Group like communications and electronic maintenance services.
....

they are out there. do they post on blogs? yes. do they announce themselves as part of the psyops war effort? not usually! how many of them are there? thousands.

in the US, if you ask a person you suspect to be undercover, 'are you a cop'. if the answer is yes, they are required by law not to lie, although they can say something like 'oh please!!! you don't really think..."

in the military their is no such requirement. a soldier w/enough time on his hands to write several extended thought out posts in the course of one week, all super pro rah rah, sorry, i just don't think they have this sort of time on there hands. also , as you know the military keeps a veru veru short leash on military bloggers. you can't just start a blog and write about operations , where you have been, what you have seen. but your buddy does. several times a week.

you cann't KNOW he is not working on some communications team. i know, i know, they only print the truth. whatever. don't tell me pysops is all about truth. it isn't . it is about using perception to produce results you want.

big business in this stuff!



SCL offers various solutions based on this methodology to help countries in specific governmental areas such as defence, foreign affairs, internal security, health, finance and tourism.

In a world where the perception is the reality, all countries need to have the capability to manage their own perceptual alignment – otherwise someone else will.

from slate circe 05 Psy-ops propaganda goes mainstream.

More lies from Fallujah:

Iraqi Army withdraws from Fallujah

Quick, annie! Get on DemocraticUnderground and issue a call for someone to "proov" that security was not transferred back to the local IP in a sign of better security there! Should be easy for you... get to it.

OK annie, you win! No progress has been made in Iraq.

LOL, rhuslancia. Thank you for that link. I suspect that she won't believe that until it's reported by Uruknet or Dahr Jamail.

Iraqi mojo,
Behave yourself and don’t use foul language. If you disagree with Annie, just say so.

Now, about the progress you are talking about, and some other totally misinformed Americans are backing you up on, let me ask you some questions:
Can my mother now go to Palestine street alone and shop for clothes there [as she did before]?
Can my Sunni brother go to Kadumiya and enjoy a beautiful night on the Tigris with his Shiite friends?
Can my Shiite brother go to Adhamiya and enjoy a night on the other side of the Tigris with his Sunni friends, eating Kebab in one of the restaurants around Abu Hanifa shrine?
Can I go back to Iraq and tell my neighbors that I got an MA degree from the US and I am working for an American newspaper?
Winter is coming soon: Do Iraqis have enough electricity to operate the heaters? If not, do they have enough kerosene to operate the alternatives?
How many bodies, bearing signs of torture and shot in the head, are found in and around Baghdad every day? Average?

When you honestly answer those questions, you will know why I don’t believe there is progress. If my family cannot live normally, and if there goal every day is to stay alive, there is no progress made.

Whom are you kidding? And why exactly? And why do you want others to believe there is progress? What’s your point?

Quick, annie!

run spot run. lol

we are going to be seeing lots of 'proof' like this in the next few weeks so you guys can 'prove' how effective the surge is working.

i wish i were 'winning' mojo.

No progress has been made in Iraq.

nice framing. have you ever heard of one step forward, two steps back? each one of those 'steps forward' could be considered 'progress'. doesn't mean you are moving forward.

I remember when the transferred security responsibility of Fallujah to Iraqi forces three years ago. There were stories everywhere and TV was crazy about it; remember when we saw on TV dozens of Iraqis jumping around and chanting to welcome their new Sunni leader and he was dressed in the old army uniform?

That was called progress then. What happened after that?

Omar, annie doesn't know Arabic, and even if she did, she probably wouldn't understand the Iraqi idiom that you deleted. annie, I asked you if you were satisfied in a way that many Iraqis do when they're joking with each other.

It's true, Omar, it's not like it was before 2003. You are right. But all I did was quote Americans who made some interesting observations that show a drop in violence over the last few months. They did not claim that there's no more violence - they just cite some numbers that show a drop in violence. Is there anything wrong with that? Is there something in the stats that is not true? Please let me know if there is.

24: "I remember when the transferred security responsibility of Fallujah to Iraqi forces three years ago.
...
That was called progress then. What happened after that?"

I think of that example every time the US pulls back from an area.

But what seems different now, today, as a totally misinformed American, is that they are neither fighting us in Falluja, nor being friendly to al-Qaeda any more. That's why I think it could last.

24, am I totally misinformed to think that Iraq will turn the corner some day? I think they will, and I want it to be sooner rather than later. I disagree with annie and Bruno consistently because they also want Iraq to turn the corner, but the most important thing to them is the US "defeat". So if their whatever-you-choose-to-call-them "defeats" the US, and then there's a bloody and protracted "cleansing" (of all sides "cleansing" the others, or trying to), and THEN Iraq turns a corner, they are happy. But not until.

You challenged us to show you some progress in Iraq, which a few of us took you up on. But now we have to show you things are all better for you and your family? I wish I could, but that comes later. FIRST Iraq has to turn the corner from the current violence & chaos to the future stability and normalcy that you (and I) want to see.

Iraqi mojo,

Believe me, I would love to see progress made in Iraq. I was for the invasion, I still am. Do you think I want to look embarrassed in front of my baathist friends, who left Iraq and are watching how we are failing? No I don’t want that to happen. And I still say “there is still hope.”
But you have to know that the propaganda you are hearing now is targeting the worlds outside Iraq because they are preparing for the withdrawal. I said that almost a year ago. Please please don’t take what you read in newspapers and see on TV for granted. You have to check and analyze.
In 2004, I went in a day trip to Tikrit with the U.S. Army. The idea was to cover what they said would be a reopening of a very important bridge in the city. It was very important that we wrote about that “progress” and where? In Saddam’s hometown. We were told that the work took a year and millions of dollars were spent on the bridge, which was hit by American bombs during the invasion.

They shipped us in black hawks. We landed in the main base there, which is Saddam’s palaces compound. And we were told that we will go to the bridge walking. We were all shocked that it was that safe to walk to the bridge coming out of a U.S. Army base.

Do you know where the bridge was? It was technically part of the base! You open one of the base’s gates and here you are at the end of the bridge!

Was that progress? They did not even need to leave the base to renovate that bridge. Can we call that progress? No. simply no, because it did not involve decrease in violence and it did not mean that other destroyed buildings were renovated. [no other renovation was made in the city of Tikrit because all were outside the base, of course]

That’s my point. Don’t take things for granted. You will here more and more about “progress” but when you talk to people in Iraq, they’ll tell you about the number of bodies found every day. Put your family and your neighbors before you when you want to write about progress. Only then you will find the truth.

They are going to withdraw. They have to lie to the world about what they are leaving behind.

Mojo: "I suspect that she won't believe that until it's reported by Uruknet or Dahr Jamail."

That's funny, Mojo!

In the comments to 24's last post, annie got excited about the Ba'ath party's alleged endorsement of Allawi. Just today, one of the links Bruno posted in his daily chaos-mongering roundup @ Zeyad's was the Ba'ath party denying they endorsed him. Guess where the link was from? Hint: apparently a milblogger has hacked uruknet to post psyops!

Here is a hit of "progress." A hint of what the Americans are going to leave behind when they soon withdraw:

BAGHDAD (AP)--Iraq's Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki met behind closed-doors with Iraq's top Shiite cleric Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, in Najaf Wednesday.
Al-Maliki briefed al-Sistani over efforts to fill Cabinet jobs vacated when ministers from the largest Sunni Arab bloc and radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr's movement pulled out to protest the prime minister's policies.
Following the meeting the premier told reporters there were "issues which I always find necessary to hear his views on."
In addition to filling the Cabinet posts, al-Maliki said he also discussed the possibility of forming a new government altogether or putting together one made up of nonpartisan technocrats - though emphasized it was currently only an "idea" that was being considered among others.
He didn't give a time frame for making a decision. But al-Maliki made it clear his government cannot go on indefinitely with an incomplete team of ministers, as has been the case since six Sadrist ministers quit in April over his failure to announce a timetable for the withdrawal of foreign troops in Iraq. The Sunni Arab ministers withdrew in August.

"the possibility of forming a new government altogether or putting together one made up of nonpartisan technocrats"

I think that would be great. Nonpartisan (nonsectarian) technocrats is what the Iraqi govt needs, imo.

See, that's what I'm talking about, Iraqi mojo. You just read the words and did not think about the whole thing.

Discussing the formation of a government of “nonsectarian” technocrats with the most influential Shiite religious figure in the world? How is that possible?

Any why should he find it “necessary to hear his views” on government issues? Why should he discuss these issues with a turbaned clergy, and why not Sunni? Or Kurdish? Why Shiite if he wants a “nonsectarian” government?

And how did you miss the point that the leader of Iraq cannot decide who to appoint as ministers unless he get the permission from the Mullah? How did you miss this point? Is this the “new Iraq” you want?

Omar, annie doesn't know Arabic, and even if she did, she probably wouldn't understand the Iraqi idiom that you deleted.

just a little private joke for arab speakers behind my back. how reassuring.

I asked you if you were satisfied in a way .

yawn, mentally impotent little boys and their need to reduce a woman when they can't overpower her w/their superior logic that isn't so superior. how does it feel to get called out by a person named 'annie'? this is the internet. for all you know i am some 250 lb male who uses a female name only to degrade you because of your predicted sexist attitude. anyway, rhus devolves into this form of 'degrade the messenger' stuff all the time. it just shows your weakness. lynn and her doughboy 'all gushie' comments. ha, really i am not afraid of a little mudslinging. real men never resort to this type of dialogue in the presence of women. they don't need to, and they know it.


When Is a Casualty Not a Casualty? (includes military assessment link)

This does not include deaths from car bombings, which the military said have numbered more than 2,600 this year.

It seems that when a Shiite kills a Shiite (as happens frequently in the south) that doesn't count. Similarly, when a Sunni kills a Sunni, that doesn't count. Nor does it count when the death was caused by a car bomb since, obvious, well, um, I couldn't even say. The exclusion of Shiite-on-Shiite and Sunni-on-Sunni violence seems like a clever-if-underhanded exploitation of critics' tendency to deploy the phrase "sectarian violence" even though there's a lot of politically motivated violence that isn't sectarian in nature. The car bomb exclusion seems entirely unprincipled.

I have an idea. Why don't we count murder rates in the U.S. but exclude all gun violence. Seriously, what is so difficult about showing the actual numbers!!!

that is from yglesia's supporting link..

Maliki could appoint Spongebob Squareturban as a technocratic minister!

(that comment @ BT's was hilarious Mojo- you should bring it forward on your site!)

annie, now that you mention it, it is not too hard to imagine that you really are a 250# dude that likes to spew anti-liberation propaganda using a woman's name...

A quieter Anbar Province rebuilds

Improving security, and then reconstruction and improving services? This can only mean one thing:

Milbloggers have hacked the CSM site to post psyops stories!

Here is a hit of "progress." A hint of what the Americans are going to leave behind when they soon withdraw:

Omar, the US have no intention of 'withdrawing'. Our troops, but not our 'support'. the gop would never allow the same engagement fro the military in the run up to the election. i read an interview of bush (i will look for it) from last january, someone who wrote a biography.. he was quoted as saying we would probably be drawing down this fall. these kinds of decisions ar made years in advance and are not a reflection of news from the ground.

the military will be replaced by at least as many 'private security guards'. nonetheless, will the US provide what it has avoided all these years? truely robust diplomatic professionals? will they address the problems in entirely new 'outside the box' ways of reconciliation?

the military has been very astute in the appearance of being careful wrt civilian death. this is unlikely when the mercenaries are paid for by standard oil. that is why laws were put in place to protect contractors.

the money will still come from congress. the people who have been profiting from this war, will still profit from this war (more actually because the private security, something bushs family has a history of being highly invested in, check carlyle etc), there will continue to be an escalation of turmoil, and we won't see any solutions.

i posted a link in my first post about efforts to start serious negotiations. this should take place sans oil/privatization interests. there need to be serious serious meeting w/results that are respected.

we can't throw the baby out w/the baathwater. (pun intended). obviously there needs to be representatives of the baath party and iraq can't eliminate allawi based solely of his history w/the cia and agreeing to attack fallujah etc because every main player in iraq has been involved in the escalation of violence. if more effort had been placed on these kinds of resolutions, iraq on iraq resolutions, NOT the different parties and the occupation resolutions, we wouldn't be in this mess. that is why there is a difference between reading about the flipping of the baath toward the occupation is an entirely different kind of news than an iraq on iraq endorsements. even if one party has an alignment w.USinterests. the US has a me me me menatality where flipping to US is paramount and this should not ever be the objective. but you see, it is not 'american' interests here we are addressing is it? no, it is corporate military industrial complex that has invaded out government and dominated our foriegn policy that is me me me and wants to be me me me in iraq.

their proxies are the US military, they will still be running the show, only w/a more benign presence, (as if anyone could consider the US military benign).

it is not too hard to imagine that you really are a 250# dude that likes to spew anti-liberation propaganda using a woman's name...

ah yes, liberation.....you know the original name they were considering for operation iraqi freedom was operation iraqi liberation.. but the acronym didn't mesh w/the concept they were working on.

anyway rhus, if you makes you feel more manly , go for it. after all , the iraqi blogs already have the 'sweet' sugar and spice smiley w/glimmers of lightgirl, it is sure ain't me.

annie: "the iraqi blogs already have the 'sweet' sugar and spice smiley w/glimmers of lightgirl, it is sure ain't me."

ha ha ha ha ha ha

Just wanted to repeat that.

Here is another hint of "progress."

From today's Washington Post:

From January to July, nearly 100,000 Iraqis fled their homes each month, according to the Iraqi Red Crescent Organization. In its midyear review, the International Organization for Migration, a U.N. agency, also reported a spike in displacement, saying that 63 percent of cases it assessed involved a reported direct threat to life.

"The stability that was anticipated as a result of various security plans has not materialized, and as the violence continues in Iraq, so will the displacement," the agency said.

24,

Sorry about the redundancy earlier in my comment. I hadn't read RhusLancia's earlier comment.

You mentioned the turnover of Fallujah to the IA back in 2004 and how they touted that as progress. You are talking about politicians and "talking heads". The Marines never thought of that as progress. They knew it wouldn't work then. Unlike what you are seeing discussed on the mil-blogs now.

The situation in Baghdad has not progressed as far as elsewhere because they appear to be working at draining the swamp. They started with targeting Al-Qaida. They have also worked at targeting the "rogue" Shiite militias. Such as segments of JAM who are being backed by Iran.

You probably will not see a sudden stopping of violence. You will see a gradual lessening, if what they are doing works for the entire country.

As you said earlier it is the political process that is of concern. Reconciliation is not an easy or fast process. There are flickers here and there. It remains to be seen if they can be fanned into a steady flame.

As to a withdrawal, that will happen eventually. But there too, if things go well, it will not be a sudden thing, but a gradual drawdown. And hopefully only after we are comfortable with Iraqs progress.

Don't count out what is happening in Anbar. Alaa(The Mesopotamian) may prove to be a very prescient person, as he predicted this type of thing happening.

Oops, just saw your last comment. Those stats were from January through July. The actual operations of the surge did not start until June.

Lynnette: "Sorry about the redundancy earlier in my comment. I hadn't read RhusLancia's earlier comment."

No sweat, Lynnette. I posted about the trash, you posted about the new glass. No matter, though, we've since learned that Milblogger's observations are to be immediately discounted as part of the pre-report "psyops" campaign... unless they are critical of US operations, of course. Then they are as true as the DailyKos diaries they're written in.

Oh, and we've also learned that 'annie' is a 250 pound dude that enjoys posting anti-liberation propaganda under a woman's name!

Nope. Go back and do the homework. The operations started in February.

we've also learned that 'annie' is a 250 pound dude that enjoys posting anti-liberation propaganda under a woman's name!

only if it please you rhus, whatever floats yer boat.

ok, here is something that is not entirely off topic, just hear me out. w/regard to anbar, 'success' and 'nudging democracy'.

wapo printed this piece back in 05 about a 49 million dollar contract (isn't that a lot of money???) that led to a lawsuit over no bid contracts.

The Air Force, under pressure from the Pentagon, committed a "gross error" last year when it rushed to sign a no-bid contract for advisers to help plan and implement Iraq's national elections and draft its constitution, the Government Accountability Office has ruled.

it involves a company that regularly traffics in special operation officers (psyops).
The firm was tasked with finding bilingual speakers "committed to a democratic Iraq" as part of a program a Pentagon official hoped would create "a nudge toward democracy," the report said. why is the airforce task w/this?

The dispute offers insight into the Pentagon's continued use of Iraqi exiles and its strategy for bringing democracy to Iraq.

"Our Defense Department has continued to pay, through pliant contractors, for a flock of Iraqi political exiles as our paid political agents in Iraq,"...The council contained about 150 Iraqi exiles -- including lawyers, physicians, and others with links to ethnic or tribal groups....Wolfowitz sought to enable 50 to 75 council members to operate independently throughout the country...The duties of the advisers include "advising government ministers, planning for and implementation of elections, drafting of constitutional documents, advising neighborhood, municipal and national councils and public services, training of security forced and details," according to the report.

$45 million to find and enable some iraqis to advise in Iraq is an awful lot of money. These must be quite special people with expensive skills to justify this.The Pentagon asked the Air Force to issue the contract. The service initially attempted to use an environmental contracting mechanism to hire the advisers but dropped the plan...increasing the number of advisers to about 200 and extending their term until July 2006.

so the pentagon ask the airforce, first it was filed under 'reconstruction, then it was framed as environmental.. here is some more details about the contract in the GOA from the lawsuit.

the only provider of subject matter experts with the requisite cultural competences and linguist skills. While there are a number of other providers of linguists (Titan Corp.) and linguists with security clearances, none of these providers have mined the Iraqi heritage community with a view to finding and deploying individuals with skills required by the MNF-I CAC. . . . They are the only provider having [deleted].

deleted?

Some members of the IRDC were selected for their professional experience....., while others were selected for family and/or social contacts with ethnic and tribal groups.

The IRDC was composed of approximately 150 individuals of Iraqi heritage from the world-wide exile community who provided assistance to the Coalition Provisional Authority with stabilizing and maintaining a civil government in Iraq. ..... Declaration of Victor A.D. Rostow, Special Assistant to the Under Secretary of Defense for Policy,

i wonder who these people are and what they did for 45 milion dollars? rostow??? would he be related to the neocon dejour eugene rostow? pushed by wolfowitz, the doug feith under secretary. feith justified the need by pointing to shortages within the civil affairs command. remember those guys? the psyops link?? if i am not mistaken doesn't that include "foreign internal defense operations, unconventional warfare operations and direct action missions". what is the deleted capability of REEP Inc to provide civil affair experts in "reconstruction and governance"? why is the airforce task w/finding people to assist w/elections thru no bid contracts w/REEP

the elections were touted as a great success at the time for iraq. this 49 million dollars must have represented something fairly important to the pentagon to go to such lengths to step around official hiring practices. frankly, i wonder who those iraqi americans are, and what they did? i wonder if the work they did had any influence in anbar. i wonder where the gazillions are going and how we could poor so much money into psyops operation and still be in such a nightmare in iraq. any ideas?

'Discussing the formation of a government of “nonsectarian” technocrats with the most influential Shiite religious figure in the world? How is that possible?'

I don't know, but I agree with them. Why prejudge them? Maybe they really will put in charge a group of nonsectarian technocrats.


'Any why should he find it “necessary to hear his views” on government issues? Why should he discuss these issues with a turbaned clergy, and why not Sunni? Or Kurdish? Why Shiite if he wants a “nonsectarian” government?'

I'm sure you know that Da3wa is close to Sistani. Iraqis pretty much voted for Sistani - that is democracy in today's Iraq. I don't think that the PM should be taking advice from Sistani on matters such as women's rights or gay rights, but I do respect Sistani for persistently calling on the Shia not to retaliate against innocent Sunni Arabs. This is democracy in today's Iraq. Is there a better alternative? Please suggest an alternative to the current system of govt in Iraq. I am secular too, and I really don't want to see Sharia law enforced in Baghdad.


'And how did you miss the point that the leader of Iraq cannot decide who to appoint as ministers unless he get the permission from the Mullah? How did you miss this point? Is this the “new Iraq” you want?'

I agree that the clergy should have nothing to do with appointing Ministries, but they did discuss the possibility of appointing technocrats, which I would fully support. I say let's give them a chance. If they put a Mullah in charge of a Ministry, then I will complain as loudly as you.

"yawn, mentally impotent little boys and their need to reduce a woman when they can't overpower her w/their superior logic that isn't so superior."

I asked you in Arabic if you are satisfied. This can be asked of a woman or a man. It has nothing to do with sexism. Try again.


"how does it feel to get called out by a person named 'annie'?"

Called out? I don't care what your name is, but you called me out?? LOL!


"this is the internet. for all you know i am some 250 lb male who uses a female name only to degrade you because of your predicted sexist attitude."

So you're telling me that you might be a man impersonating a western female? That would not surprise me! And again, using an Iraqi idiom to ask you if you're satisfied is not sexist. I can ask Omar the same question.


"anyway, rhus devolves into this form of 'degrade the messenger' stuff all the time."

Um, didn't you and Omar do the same thing when I quoted a 3rd party?


"it just shows your weakness."

Telling you that you've won and asking you if you're satisfied shows my weakness??


"lynn and her doughboy 'all gushie' comments. ha, really i am not afraid of a little mudslinging. real men never resort to this type of dialogue in the presence of women. they don't need to, and they know it."

Sounds like you've prejudged me. Again, I am not surprised by your prejudice.

rhushlancia@11:23 am, thanks, I will post that on my site later:)

excuse me mojo, i heard you make reference to my underware earlier and assumed when you were speaking to Omar in a language i couldn't understand there was a reason why you were speaking about me in a way i couldn't understand and assumed it was related to my being a woman. yes, i called you out on your 71% figure and yes, i 'won' because it was sited by an anonymous person on a blog w/figures not supported by any official site at all. so that is calling you out. again, excuse me. i am so accostomed to some of the regular posters here making personal references i should not have stooped to that level.


we've since learned that Milblogger's observations are to be immediately discounted as part of the pre-report "psyops" campaign

i love the way you jump from 'for all we know' to 'we've also learned' w/regularty. i think it is prudent to always CONSIDER THE SOURCE. first we have mojo claiming 'we are not allowed', now you w/your 'immediately discounted'. i think what we can ALL ACKNOWLEDGE is that pyops plays a very very important role in this war, it is a CONSTANT PRESENCE, used in MULTIPLE operations, by THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS of both private and military personel, and since the Pets specialty, if i am not mistaken.. is clandestine operations, i think it is PRUDENT, to always keep in mind big brother is out there, running the show.

frankly, i wouldn't care, if the show was a success. but it isn't now is it? lets drop the 'progress' meme for an instant could we please? if you had to grade this 'liberation' in terms of RESULTS (just like in school, past the 4th grade A for effort does not cut the mustard)would it be to presumptuous of me to conclude this has been a FAILURE? ok, ok, they are liberated. they are free. but please don't tell me this is what freedom and liberty look like, american style, becaaue i know different.

so go ahead and post your feel good articles. we all know this blogger is never going to change his stripes and say ANYTHING that does not conform w/the pro all US crowd. just don't expect me not to put it thru my psyops filter, they are out there, and they DO NOT identify themselves as such.

ok team, you know who you are, and so do i. you have your work cut out for you. and yes, you are allowed and there may be many who don't immediately dismiss you, but i won't be one of them. go ahead and post for yourselves, and all the suckers.

and rhus, 'for all you know' IS NOT 'we've learned'. really, it is totally up to any of you how you want to visualize me.

frankly, i think of you all as interchangeable characters that come to work in the morning and play parts. it would not surprise me in the least if 'rhus' was 10 different people on 10 different days. just another day in the empire.

well, not ALL of you. i just meant all you who speak in one voice and always agree w/eahother.

OUCH

stan goff again.... a must read whether you agree w/it or not

The End Begins....

ok, i am off to get some real work done. cheerio. what? no comment on the 45 MILLION DOLLAR contract to line up some iraqi expats? cat got your tongue?

"excuse me mojo, i heard you make reference to my underware earlier and assumed when you were speaking to Omar in a language i couldn't understand there was a reason why you were speaking about me in a way i couldn't understand and assumed it was related to my being a woman."

"panties in a twist" is an American idiom, which I've used on men before. I guess I should have said "don't have a cow" so that you wouldn't have a cow! LOL:)


"yes, i called you out on your 71% figure"

It's not "my" 71% figure. OMG it's no wonder rhuslancia gets so annoyed by you.


"and yes, i 'won' because it was sited by an anonymous person on a blog w/figures not supported by any official site at all."

OK, based on what you've read in the press (I mean besides Uruknet), is the situation in Baghdad better than a year ago? The same? Worse? Whatever, doesn't matter. Everybody with a brain knows that the terrorists have mass murdered Iraqis in order to show that no progress can be made in Iraq as long as there is 'democracy' in Iraq. The jarab (our Arab "brethren") have defeated the US military by mass murdering Iraqis, and the 'leftists' in America seem to be unable to condemn the murderers, and that makes me sick. I used to call myself a liberal until I saw how liberals have acted in this war. YUCK.

24,

I was not referring to the "shaping" operations that were done in the beginning. I was referring to those that were designed to work in concert with each other once the entire compliment of troops was on the ground.

Bruno,

It seems to me that the US is trying to assert control over the Iraqi Anbaris by co-opting them into militia groups against the wishes of Maliki at al. Not that I'd give Maliki the time of day, personally, but wasn't Iraq a 'sovereign' country?

lol!

That's right, Bruno, doesn't matter how bad the guy is(in your opinion), gotta object to anything we do. Because that's what's really important to you. That's why you are here. :)

flip...flop...flip...flop :)

Mojo and Rhus,

Annie, Bruno, Suz, Italian, Rachel, they are all one in the same type. Anything negative about the US is good, anything that may be positive is bad. And if they can't find it, they will spin it.

Annie,

Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore you. Squish, squish, squish...

i just meant all you who speak in one voice and always agree w/eahother.

You mean like the people I mentioned in my comment just above to Mojo and Rhus? I agree, propagandists, all. ;)

"ok, i am off to get some real work done. cheerio. what? no comment on the 45 MILLION DOLLAR contract to line up some iraqi expats? cat got your tongue?"

like the rest of your accusations, this more bogus speculation that most of us simply ignore because you are the one bringing it up.

how many "no-bid" contracts (legal in certain contexts) happen in America, one of the most transparent, restrictive places when it comes to fairness in bidding?

whether or not it happens in iraq, where there is no law and no enforcement, is relatively insignificant when compared with the much greater issues of security and establishing basic respect for law in the first place.

There are certain priorities when it comes to the issues that need to be addressed in Iraq. Complaining about the mistakes the US makes is fine, but it must be done within the context of the larger security problems that exist in Iraq.

The security problems are more or less the result of terrorists and "insurgents" competing for power while using the excuse that they are "fighting the US occupation". This is how they get gullible people like you and 24 on their side.

This is also why you are a hypocrite in this whole conversation. You cannot, on the one hand, complain about lack of progress, and on the other hand, support efforts to undermine progress. You continue to sound like a total fool.

You also sound like a total fool by presuming certain reports by agenda driven "reporters" to be fact, when any person with common sense KNOWS that everything in Iraq, right now, is confused, unclear and subject to agenda driven propaganda. I think its pretty easy for most pro-America/pro-"occupation" people to acknowledge this, to look at EVERYTHING with a critical eye. Its FAR less likely for you to EVER question reporting that "just happens" to show the US in a negative light.

There is no harm in being critical when the US makes mistakes. However, to perceive every mistake as a malicious conspiracy to subject Iraq to infinite slavery is, well, dramatic and completely unhelpful, particularly when the US track record for helping countries develop, when given the opportunity, is quite good (again - Japan, Germany (all of Europe after war), S. Korea, Taiwan, Former Yugoslavia, Kuwait, Dubai, Jordan, Thailand...the list goes on).

Again, this does not mean the US is perfect by any means, or that individuals in our government are always virtuously ambitious. It DOES however mean the US, if given the chance, is able to be a good friend when considering the bigger picture, and considering the alternatives (Iran, Al Qaeda, etc...)

Regardless of what brought us to this moment as Americans, we should not be permitted to deny the realities of the decision before us. Our choice is simple and sobering – whether to stay and continue to fight for freedom and democracy along with Iraqis who have stood with us – or to leave, abandon those friends to death, and embolden our most dangerous enemies. The indifferent way that both liberals and conservatives talk about leaving – as if we have the moral prerogative to just “take our ball and go home” – makes my blood run cold. I agree with Omar that despite everything, there is still hope. I believe in the Iraqi people – their strength, intelligence and resiliency. I would rather stand with them on the side of hope than ever concede defeat to this kind of tyranny.

Iraqi mojo,
If you have been watching the political process in Iraq since 2003, and given what you are saying I doubt you have, you will see that this is all running in a circle and nothing will change.

Ibrahim al-Jaafari did the same thing when he came to power. He visited Sistani every week for months to come up with a cabinet. Did Jaafari have nonsectarian ministers? NO he did not.

Therefore, you don’t have to wait to see what will happen.
How do you expect Sistani, the most powerful RELIGIOUS man in Iraq who promotes Sharia, to ask for technocrats or seculars? And you know damn well that Iraq is a secular country, it always has been and will always be. And that means we will never be ok with a religious cabinet like the one you have now and like the one you trust to make the change.

I also thought that Iraq is a secular country, but then the Iraqis voted for Da3wa and SCIRI. Do we have any choice other than to hope Maliki will choose non-sectarian technocrats like he said they would? I hope for the best. I hope things will change for the better, Insha Allah. I hope the 'resistance' does not continue to mass murder Iraqi veggie shoppers in order to punish Maliki and the govt.

Check out ITM's latest post:

"Yesterday Maliki went to visit Sistani to discuss the latest security and political developments with him.
It's the kind of a move that reflects the government's persistence to let clerics make the political decisions for the country. As if they haven't done enough harm so far!

Instead of reaching out to his partners in the political process from other groups he goes in the exact opposite direction and I really don't know what he thought such visit could do to improve his position, especially at a time when he's in desperate need to mend the rift in his cabinet.

When I think of this meeting I see that it can't do anything good for Iraq. It probably can serve one particular segment of the people but most likely it's an attempt to fix the damage caused by the Shia-Shia conflict following the recent incidents in Karbala which further isolated the "coalition of four" from the rest of Shia parties.

It remains difficult for Sistani to deal with that too because he doesn't only not represent all Iraqis; he doesn't represent all the Shia either. This man had isolated himself in a small room in the back alleys of Najaf and he communicates with the world only through his agents and representatives so he can't be expected to offer much help to anyone. And it's wrong to think that the man can solve any problem with a single fatwa—we had seen many examples where fatwas and statements by dozens of clerics of both sects that called for calm and rejecting violence got ignored and couldn't change a thing in the situation on the ground."

erin Our choice is simple and sobering – whether to stay and continue to fight for freedom and democracy along with Iraqis who have stood with us – or or to leave, abandon those friends to death, and embolden our most dangerous enemies.

no, those are not our only choices. that also completely masks the huge mistakes. you are making an assumption that to continue in the direction we have been going, the same one that has made iraq worse, that it will magically turn around.

if companies worked like that, following failed policies, everyone would be going bankrupt. as fare as 'emboldening' our enemies, i am sure you have heard that our invasion has embolden them for sure.. and they keep multiplying. maybe you shoulc consider we are going about things the wrong way. i linked to an op ed by general baptiste earlier. he said out foriegn policy is supported by four legs, and we are resting everything on the military. i am not saying iraq can't be saved. i just think it can't be saved in the way we have been doing it. w/air strikes and controlling everything.

mojo, the 'leftists' in America seem to be unable to condemn the murderers

oh, you know this is a lie. i have condemned the murder of civilians no matter who does it since the beginning of this fiasco. i don't see the pro war crowd linking to the videos of contractors blowing people off the side of the road. face it, it isn't a left/right thing wrt to murder, go ahead, say it. say you want someone to pay for haditha, for the contractors who take lives indescriminently. go ahead, link to one.

you can't ladida along and pretend america hasn't done its share in blowing the crap out of people and places in our many ventures into free marketplace. ha!

btw, it was amusing seeing how you handled yourself when i excused myself. real big of you. ha!

this is what i am talking about. there are many people who have no problem condemning the people who designed this war, be it conservative or liberal or whatever. you love calling us anti american and love saying it is about Anything negative about the US is good, (you wish you could squish me but you haven't got the chhops, never did, won't ever). it isn't the 'US' you fruitcake, it is the zionist neocons who have invaded. go read eisenhower, or jefferson, or roosevelt, face it, this is the most unpopular unamerican administration of all time! today bush hit the lowest level of approval for his policies than since they started tracking in 53.

so don't go slandering the good name of the US by squishing (your forte) this criminal cheneyco w/the real mckoy. both you and i know this ain't my america, that i LOVE, and my relatives gave their LIFE FOR. i don't have to fabricate and lie to get my point across like some 2 faced people.

and another thing. i am not familiar enough w/those other posters to understand your meaning but i for one, have a variation of opinion. i am not all black and white about everything or everyone, unlike your boring hypocritical breathen.

yo, krypt. you didn't answer my question wrt the 45 MILLION DOLLAR contract. don't try passing this off on the WAPO for reporting it, especially since they hardly touched on what exactly was going on. and they didn't lie. i provided the link to the GAO decision.

here's what you said... a whole lot of nuthin. this isn't just about no bid contracts. it may be a little juicier than that. this is about 45 million dollars for some very special skilled interpreters, ones w/links to ethnic or tribal groups. gee they started out just a few, then it grew to 200. hmm.. that sounds like some program. pushed by the pentagon, oretty high up, why didn't they just go the normal route if they wanted interpreters? why the big hush hush rush job, why the need to hire a company that trains special forces and works thru the psyops team and operates independently, why go thru the airforce.

Complaining about the mistakes the US makes is fine, but it must be done within the context of the larger security problems that exist in Iraq.

i think you missed my point there kryspie. i wans't complaining about the contract. i was just wondering what kind of program it was. anyway, clearly you didn't feel like touching this w/a 19 foot pole. ladida. hm, psyops, tribes, 45 million, "foreign internal defense operations, unconventional warfare operations and direct action missions"! sounds like a hollywood thriller.

ya think? one little itty bitty article. i guess the press didn't want to touch it. totally understandable. i just happen to be curious about what kind of programs we will never hear about that could have contributed to this DISASTER and what they mean by 'nudging democracy'. nudge nudge.

It's not "my" 71% figure.

lol, ok, your anonymous factoid hiding behind max on some blog. it's your figure if you are promoting it and using it in your argument. do some homework, if you think it reflects reality(why else link to it) then track down where it came from. ask in the comment section or something. or do yu think this soldier pulled these numebrs out of a hat?

track it down or roll over and admit defeat on this issue. you are clutching onto a sinking ship of denial.

so mojo, what do you think of ITM's opinion? has he swayed you where Omar couldn't? or do you think ITM is wrong.

"I think you missed my point there kryspie."

Not really, but you missed mine. You are presuming facts without any evidence, because of your bias against the US administration. Nevermind that bush and "cheneyco" would never have the capability to do most of the things you accuse them of doing. Remember in elementary school? The checks and balances? The trilateral relationship amongst the various branches of government? Oh, that's right, you failed out of 1st grade and never went back.

You see, annie, if the current administration ACTUALLY had the power to do the things you accuse them of doing, the entire Democractic party would have been killed off at this point - not to mention the more "liberal" republicans like McCain...

"i was just wondering what kind of program it was."

why wonder? accept it for what it is or alter an alternatively reasonable explanation - oh, that's right, you don't have an alternatively reasonable explanation.

Your obsession with "psyops" is quite dramatic, but more indicative of your own paranoia about what the government is doing. Seriously, you'd be locked up by now if the government really had the designs you accuse it of having.

why wonder? accept it for what it is

yeah, so what is it? what is it that the pentagon needs to have the airforce to get a fast track contract on that reqire 45 million and a bunch of 'westernized' iraqis w/special skills that a company like titan doesn't have enough [delete] w/tribal influence that also just so happens to be co ordinatted by the psyops teams?

whaja mean.. accept it for what it is? 45 mill is a bundle. thats around $200000 a pop. those prices pay for????

hey guys.. here's a msmnbc report about bush changing the goal posts. i guess everybodies talkin. listen to him speak in the video, you notice how he talks about bringing the troops home while leaving the same amount of security? that means they are hiring the guns, not the diplomats.


video scroll

"so mojo, what do you think of ITM's opinion? has he swayed you where Omar couldn't? or do you think ITM is wrong."

I think they are both right. I don't want an Islamic govt in Baghdad either. When I read the excerpt that Omar quoted above, I was encouraged to read about the possible choice of technocrats to run the Ministries, and I hope that they proceed with that possible choice. Omar apparently thinks that's all talk, and I say let's give them a chance.

But here's the real problem with our (we secular people) opinions and desires for Iraq: the Iraqi people voted for Da'wa and SCIRI. How can we demand democracy in Iraq without ending up with an Islamic government?

You are presuming facts without any evidence

what where? you mean the fact that the pentagon could have gone thru the normal channels to get appropriations for this program and it didn't?

the fact that they stovepiped it to this company that offers a lot more than linguists? that they needed this company to provide the linguists because of [delete]

that it moved thru the channels and was coordinated thru 'civilian affairs' which we all know is psyops.

you know what else i notice, when they want a 'success' they just stop a project, like fallujah. they are now turning it over. makes me wonder what they might have stopped in anbar to acheive the success there.

hey, does anyone know where the islamic state of iraq actually came from? they sure seemed to pop up awfully fast.

the Iraqi people voted for Da'wa and SCIRI. How can we demand democracy in Iraq without ending up with an Islamic government?

start by having a constitution that does not demand you have anything like our electoral college. do not define your candidates by religious affiliation. do not define your parties by religious affiliation. try a little separation of church and state.

observe the problems lebanon has had wrt the requirements of who can and cannot fill certain posts. notice the marginalization of certain groups based on the constitution. i am not sure how you can get this religious thing out, now that it is in, but part of the probelm lies w/'group think'. try to have individuals run. you would be surprised at haow people cross party lines when the individual speaks their language. i have voted for republicans more than once, because i liked the individual and we merged on certain issues.

make the party tell you exactly who is running.

personally, i would prefer to live in a dictatorship w/gore running it, than a fake democracy w/cheating lying voting machines and crooked judges. democracy isn't all it is cracked up to be, and it really isn't democratic. for example, in states like montana, they have the same amount of cenators that i do. not fair.w/the gerrymandering and the lobiests and all that it isn't really representative. the corporations own the politicians, and decide the wars. iraq needs to have a serious meeting of the minds, or it will get squashed.

the war has divided you, now all thats left is the conquering part.

"what is it that the pentagon needs to have the airforce to get a fast track contract on that reqire 45 million and a bunch of 'westernized' iraqis w/special skills that a company like titan doesn't have enough [delete] w/tribal influence that also just so happens to be co ordinatted by the psyops teams?..."

Ah - that's right - I forgot you were an expert on military / war spending and know exactly how much should be allocated to which activity...

Oh wait - you don't know anything about military/war spending or how much things cost?

Nevertheless, you presume to know exactly what money is being allocated for which activity.

The washington post reporters don't know. I doubt anyone actually knows except for the pentagon.

So then, your argument must be, that you have a RIGHT to know EXACTLY what the pentagon is spending its money on?

while this may seem like a reasonable request, it would be an unprecedented (and dangerous) publication of information that would be used by the enemy to undermine our national security and war efforts. NO government allows for such information to be publicly disclosed, and the US is BY FAR the most flexible nation on earth in this regard.

Nevertheless, I'm SURE you KNOW that money is being spent to "enslave the iraqi people."

"start by having a constitution that does not demand you have anything like our electoral college. do not define your candidates by religious affiliation. do not define your parties by religious affiliation. try a little separation of church and state."

Yes, and who gets to vote on this constitution? The same people who voted for the SCIRI? Who gets to decide there should be separation of church and state?...The same people who voted in the SCIRI? Hopefully, you get the point, although I wouldn't be surprised if you did not.

OR, the US could just forcefully impose a constitution that demands a separation of church and state? I guess this is what you are asking for...

"personally, i would prefer to live in a dictatorship w/gore running it, than a fake democracy w/cheating lying voting machines and crooked judges. democracy isn't all it is cracked up to be, and it really isn't democratic. for example, in states like montana, they have the same amount of cenators that i do. not fair.w/the gerrymandering and the lobiests and all that it isn't really representative. the corporations own the politicians, and decide the wars. iraq needs to have a serious meeting of the minds, or it will get squashed."

Thank you for at least acknowledging your anti-democracy leanings. There are places where people like you are welcome, like cuba, venezuela or iran.

"start by having a constitution that does not demand you have anything like our electoral college. do not define your candidates by religious affiliation. do not define your parties by religious affiliation. try a little separation of church and state."

Excellent suggestions, but these goals are easier said than achieved. Do you think that replacing the system of lists in Iraq with something else would actually result in secular candidates? Secular parties ran in the Iraqi elections - they didn't do well. Do you think the Iraqis won't figure out who's Sunni and who's Shi3i if the candidates aren't defined by sectarian affiliation?? and forcing separation of mosque and state is a wonderful idea, but how do we get there? Great suggestions though, annie. Hopefully the Iraqis will find the will to amend the constitution and effect some of these critical changes.

riverbend arrives safely

mojo, thanks for responding in a positive way. Do you think that replacing the system of lists in Iraq with something else would actually result in secular candidates? Secular parties ran in the Iraqi elections - they didn't do well.

candidates shouldn't be defined by their religion. i noticed recently, the military handed out descriptions of the congresscritters that came to visit them. an odd ting was after their name and state, it named their religion. why? i mean really, this is weird. i don't even know what religion gore is, or clinton. religion should be more personal.

ok, everybody has an ethnicity. so what. would you cross sectarian lines to vote for a person who you liked? it doesn't mean you don't have to know, it just means it is irrelevant to the position they are running. for example, if 5 people were running in a party you might possibly get a sense of which one was more aligned w/you. if religion is important to you, you could choose the one who was more religious, but if iraq is a secular country, one might think people would choose a less religious person without going outside their party. you could choose to vote for someone who carried you religious affiliation, but whom you felt wouldn't bring their religion to work w/them. by not having a choice on who to vote for (specifically) it leaves it up to the party, who doesn't want to fall out of line w/the iman, and also who is less likely to be incognito.

there was a reason why names weren't on the ballot.

Yes, and who gets to vote on this constitution? The same people who voted for the SCIRI?

sciri did not write the last constitution. people should be free to make their own new parties and people should be free to vote outside of a party, basically for anyone. this is if they vote at all. i'm kinda w/Omar and BT on this. i think iraq needs to set some priorities and right now i really don't think democracy should be before little things like security and utilities.

someone needs to organize a mass meeting of tribal elders (who have likely fled iraq) along w/those that are holding down the fort. all parties. we need some extremely talented negotiators and firm goals of reconciliation. there need to be a wiping of the blackboard, all members saying what they are and are not willing to compromise, and find some areas everyone can agree on. find the areas people have in common and work towards a very small plan which everyone can agree. there must be somethings all iraqis agree on. start small, simple. find ways to listen and compromise. take all the most divisive issues and put them outside the room. no matter what they are.

after you have worked together on the one little issue that people agree on move to other issues. when you find something you cannot agree on, put it outside the room. only work on things that are workable. after a few days and weeks of working out the simpler things start addressing issues that seemed divisive earlier.

iraqis need to experience some accomplishment in their own terms. america has been directing for a long time. they don't need to be in the room. if their interests are not represented so be it. you just have to have some faith that in all these last years something has rubbed off. if it hasn't, so be it.

iraqis need to commit to resolving their differences. as long as you rely on guns to find solutions, you will have more death. break the chain. the most important thing you can do for your survival is to unite.

Thank you for at least acknowledging your anti-democracy leanings.

actually, i am a big fan of true democracy, i am just not afraid to call a spade a spade. face it, we do not live in a true democracy. far from it. money rules.

this is the most anti democratic the US has been in my lifetime.

71%

what a coincidence, huh?

71%...and?

So, what do YOU think should be done if "diplomatic efforts" fail to halt Iran's nuclear weapons program?

Should Iran just be allowed to have nuclear weapons that they would then use to "wipe israel off the map"?

"actually, i am a big fan of true democracy"?

give an example of your true democracy, and which country has applied it?

So, what nuclear weapons program does iran have?? give link

"sciri did not write the last constitution."

I never said they did. I'm saying the same people who voted sciri into power are the same ones that would vote on the constitution.

"people should be free to make their own new parties and people should be free to vote outside of a party, basically for anyone."

People were always free to make their own parties, and people were always free to vote outside their party. What are you talking about? The parties were coalitions of group representatives of the iraqi people. they have certain obligation to their parties, like republicans and democrats, and they have the same freedom to go outside their party that republicans and democrats do.

"i think iraq needs to set some priorities and right now i really don't think democracy should be before little things like security and utilities."

And who, again, i Iraq gets to set these priorities? the people who voted for sciri? the non-secularists that do not have the same kind of political power that religiously affiliated parties have - that would require a non-representative government...

Once again, you are trying to have it both ways, and that's impossible. You can't say "the Iraqi people should decide" when a full on populist vote would bring sharia law to baghdad.

"someone needs to organize a mass meeting of tribal elders (who have likely fled iraq) along w/those that are holding down the fort."

Brilliant. too bad the US has been trying to do this for years. Ah...but the US is not allowed to do this. Who is this Someone? Really - who is this leader that you say exists who has the charisma and moral authority to do this.

"all parties. we need some extremely talented negotiators and firm goals of reconciliation."

No shit sherlock.

"there need to be a wiping of the blackboard, all members saying what they are and are not willing to compromise, and find some areas everyone can agree on. find the areas people have in common and work towards a very small plan which everyone can agree. there must be somethings all iraqis agree on. start small, simple. find ways to listen and compromise."

There are people MUCH MUCH smarter than you and bruno combined that have been trying to do this exact thing. God, you're an arrogant idiot.

"ake all the most divisive issues and put them outside the room. no matter what they are."

Yes, and we'll all sing kumbaya and smoke pot together...then we'll hit the Xtasy and have a big rave.

LOL. Ok...

http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/view/russians_urge_iran_to_stop_nuclear_program/

There are hundreds more. Just do a simple google search on Iran and nuclear.

are you really this dim?

I notice you didn't respond to my challenge to name a country that has a "true democracy" by your definition...

you've also implied that you believe Iran should be allowed to have nuclear weapons.

thanks for being honest!

* The strongest argument against democracy is a five minute discussion with the average voter.

-Sir Winston Churchill

i soo don't believe this!lol

six nuclear warheads mistakenly flown on a B-52 bomber from Minot Air Force Base, N.D., to Barksdale Air Force Base, La., (which just so happens to be the air base staging ground for ME flights.)

no. nada. Doesn't happen that way. you don't 'misplace' nuclear warheads. The B-52 aircrew that had them didn't 'neglect' to inspect their aircraft this one time..... and news of it doesn't quietly leak out of the air base without some serious people knowing about it.

hey, when the zionist get rid of their nukes, lets discuss the one iran may have in 10 years. btw, that 'wipe off the map' quote of aipac's... you da tool man!

yo kripple, that link of your did not state iran was developing a nuclear weapons program. if there are so many, find one that says iran is developing one, and copy and paste the sentence for us all to read.

or do you have anything besides weekly standard blathering.

cough it up or you know what you can do, swallow it.

i consider israel more dangerous to my health than iran.

"yo kripple, that link of your did not state iran was developing a nuclear weapons program..."

Ahhh...so what you are REALLY asking for is an article in which Iran ADMITS to having a nuclear "weapon" program. You've bought into the "peaceful nuclear program" gimmickery. Not that i'm surprised.

"hey, when the zionist get rid of their nukes, lets discuss the one iran may have in 10 years. btw, that 'wipe off the map' quote of aipac's... you da tool man!"

Ahh...and you also believe Iran seeks peaceful coexistence with israel, that iran does not financially support terrorism against innocent israeli's...etc, etc...

Maybe you should move to that "true democracy" of Iran, who's leaders are oh so motivated to be at peace with israel, the us, iraq...

"i consider israel more dangerous to my health than iran."

gee...really? but you don't want israel "wiped off the map"?

More mysterious contradictions from our favorite propaganda spewing, democracy hating socialist...

"hey, when the zionist get rid of their nukes, lets discuss the one iran may have in 10 years."

and which country would be more likely to use nuclear weapons against the US - iran or israel?

considering iran doesn't have any nukes, and israel has a whole arsenal thats kind of a no brainer.

anyway, i am thinking more globally. nukes are bad news for everyone. of the 2 countries israel is more of a rogue nation w/nukes than iran, obviously since iran has none.

but you don't want israel "wiped off the map"?

like the way israel wants the palestinans wiped off the map? i don't want any people wiped off the map. i want palestine as a democracy. one nation w/equal rights. i don't think any nations should be defined by a biblical book or prophesy.

so what you are REALLY asking for is an article in which Iran ADMITS to having a nuclear "weapon" program.

you mean like israel? the answer to your question is that i would like an article from our own intellegence community stating they have evidence iran has a nuclear weapons program. the onlt people who say this are.. israel. bottom liene, israel is not my country. what s good for them is not neccessarily in the best interest as the US. they have more power in this country than any one of out states. that pisses me off. they should not be allowed to invest in our national or state elections.

iran does not financially support terrorism against innocent israeli's.

an innocent israel does not exist. israel is seeped in daily terrorist activity..

today.. zionist tactic (sound familiar)


Defense Minister Ehud Barak ordered the defense establishment Tuesday to examine the implications of temporarily cutting the Gaza Strip off from electricity, in response to the ongoing Qassam rocket fire at southern Israel.
.......
"We will set a price tag for every Qassam, in terms of cutting off infrastructures," Ramon said in remarks broadcast on Army Radio. "The Hamas will determine that price tag. It will know this in advance."

"We will not continue to supply 'oxygen' in the form of electricity, fuel, and water while they are trying to murder our kids. The capability to do that stems from the fact that we are not in Gaza."

12 kids were treated for shock, none were injured, and the appropriate response is to cut off electricity, fuel and water for 1.5 million persons who happen to live in the same geographical area as those few who fired the rockets.

israel is not my favorite subject. do you know how many palestinian children have died as a result of israeli fire in the last month. the last year. have you ever hunh out on the message boards or comment section there> talk about hate and racism. jeez. very sad.

[24] “We were all shocked that it was that safe to walk to the bridge coming out of a U.S. Army base. Do you know where the bridge was? It was technically part of the base! You open one of the base’s gates and here you are at the end of the bridge!”

Wow. That IS an interesting story. Four years ago, I would have been surprised at such blatant playing of games with reality by people. Now, though, after sloughing through four years of US spin and misinformation, it’s par for the course.



[mojo] “The "assertions" are just observations of statistics that show a drop in violence, that's all.”

Violence always drops in Iraq at this time of year. Statistically, its worse than 2006, which was worse than 2005 which was … well, you get the idea.


[annie] "Just counting civilian deaths, by any means, the numbers are even more dramatic, with a 1000 percent increase since December 2006. signed , anonymous. there, all better now. Ps Our methodology and numbers have been scrubbed thoroughly by the intelligence community and declared by the intel community the best available measures and data." //end

ROTFL!

:D

Good ol' Annie ...

[rhuslancia] “I disagree with annie and Bruno consistently because they also want Iraq to turn the corner, but the most important thing to them is the US "defeat". So if their whatever-you-choose-to-call-them "defeats" the US, and then there's a bloody and protracted "cleansing" (of all sides "cleansing" the others, or trying to), and THEN Iraq turns a corner, they are happy. But not until.”

[rhuslancia] “But what seems different now, today, as a totally misinformed American, is that they are neither fighting us in Falluja, nor being friendly to al-Qaeda any more. That's why I think it could last.”

I PREDICTED years ago that the US would inevitably turn its back on the Shiites and try to recruit the Sunnis to its cause, at a time when people were laughing at these assertions of mine. Now it has come to pass. I predicted that the clueless Amreekan invasionists would mindlessly jump on the bandwagon and parrot whatever their masters managed to spin. And yes, judging by Rhus’ comments, that has come to pass as well.

The question is, WHY the sudden schmoozing up to the Sunni? Let’s be honest, these are the same people that have been killing Americans and that have been depicted as irreconcilable terrorists, blackguards, dead-enders and so forth for the last four years. So why the sudden chumminess? Simply - and this is what Rhuslancia and Lynnette and the rest of the gang will never be able to admit - ALL OTHER FACTORS are subordinated to the successful execution of US foreign policy objectives.

Saddam being an evil dictator was OK when he was doing what America wanted.

The Shiites in power were OK when America thought it could use them to subvert Iran.

Sovereignty was OK for as long as the US thought it could get Maliki to follow the US agenda.

Now that its apparent that the Maliki government is not working out so well, America and Americans like Rhus, Lynnette etc are quite happy, even blasé, to admit that yeah, the whole “democracy uber alles” angle isn’t working out and that the “sovereignty” angle isn’t working out, so let’s drop them. Even though they were so very important, they’re not anymore, because they’re in the way of US policy.

And what IS US policy?

Why, the same as it has always been, of course.

The same as it has been since the Neocons stated in their document “Rebuilding America’s Defences” that they were going to invade and subsume both Iraq and Iran into the US sphere of influence. Right now Bush is trying to find a casus belli with Iran in whatever method he can possibly think of.

In the event of conflict with Iran, Iranian proxies such as the BADR brigade and SCIRI (SIIC) will turn on their previous American sponsor and bite them in the ass. So will, most likely, the Sadrists. And what to make of this raging tide of SHIA anger> Why, toss a few SUNNIS in front of it; get Iraqis to kill each other instead of Americans. It’s the same sectarian strategy that has worked so well so far. Take Fallujah and the Muthanna brigade as an example. Send some Shia to patrol Sunni areas, and voila! They will kill each other instead of Americans.

It’s no secret that the people that the US is recruiting in Anbar are anti-Maliki. It’s no secret that even AQ men are good enough. Good enough to promulgate American policy, that is. It’s furthermore no secret that once the usefulness of these people has expired, they will be hunted down and killed as terrorists once again, just the same as Saddam Hussein was dealt with.

Why?

Oh, right. The resistance types want an independent Iraq, free of foreign influence.

AND THAT, people, is why the US cannot be an honest broker in Iraq, and cannot ‘solve’ Iraq’s problems – because American actions are guided by what is good for America, not what is good for Iraq.

[bruno] It seems to me that the US is trying to assert control over the Iraqi Anbaris by co-opting them into militia groups against the wishes of Maliki at al. Not that I'd give Maliki the time of day, personally, but wasn't Iraq a 'sovereign' country?

[lynnette] “lol! That's right, Bruno, doesn't matter how bad the guy is(in your opinion), gotta object to anything we do. Because that's what's really important to you. That's why you are here. :) flip...flop...

What’s important to ME, Lynnette, is that (a) Iraq doesn’t fail completely as a state and (b) that the US gets the hell out and stops interfering with the people there. Clearly America lies, and spins and deceives around the clock about its motives, clearly Iraqis as a whole are overwhelmingly opposed to a permanent US presence in Iraq. OF COURSE I object when YOU flip-flop on the supposed sacred issues of democracy and sovereignty. BECAUSE, after all, that was the entire reason (if we forget the fictitious, invented WMD and AQ links for a second) for the invasion, wasn’t it?

Which brings me to the latest lie:

[perry] “The debate in the U.S. is no longer about withdrawing troops. It has turned to how many troops,and for how many years.”

Of course it has.

That’s because American politicians are liars and because America was always lying about leaving Iraq. We knew this from the beginning. I guess the “permanent” bases are meant to be PERMANENT after all, huh?

Just like the deluded antiwar crowd always said, right?

A brave new attempt is under way to project that all is well now with Fallujah. Residents know better - or worse.
[...]
The footage exposed the painful truth of the situation here. The streets were deserted, shops were closed and people appeared with sullen faces. "Of course we are happy to have our city peaceful, but not this way," lawyer Ahmed Hammad told Inter Press Service (IPS). "The local police guided and supported by the US Army have prevented car movements for nearly three months now. They should not be proud of having the city quiet in a way that kills everybody with hunger and disease."
[...]
A journalist who lives in Fallujah told IPS that several local journalists had been detained and warned of trouble for them if they reported anything other than "good news" about Fallujah.

"The media in the West are lying about Fallujah by saying everything is well," said the journalist. "What is so good about a city that lives with no electricity, no water, no fuel, very expensive life necessities, and most important, with no vehicles? Moreover the unemployment is incredibly high." [...]
A tour of the city on foot gives the impression of the Dark Ages. People are back to riding donkeys.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/II07Ak04.html

"What’s important to ME, Lynnette, is that (a) Iraq doesn’t fail completely as a state and (b) that the US gets the hell out and stops interfering with the people there."

These two things are antithetical to each other. It's further disingenuous for you to presume that, if the US was not involved in Iraq's emergence from Saddam, other countries would not take its place. The US is the best friend Iraq could have, or its worst enemy. And it really depends on the Iraqis, not you.

The so called "chuminess" with Sunnis is not chuminess, but an ongoing effort to recruit and incorporate them into the new Iraq. Why are you so interested in creating rift between Shias and Sunnis? Oh...that's right - you LIKE this war.

[bruno] "What’s important to ME, Lynnette, is that (a) Iraq doesn’t fail completely as a state and (b) that the US gets the hell out and stops interfering with the people there."
[kr] “These two things are antithetical to each other.”

I have to point out, Kryp, that Iraq was far better off and far more functional BEFORE America got there. Right now, under American tutelage, everything is falling apart.

[kr] “It's further disingenuous for you to presume that, if the US was not involved in Iraq's emergence from Saddam, other countries would not take its place.”

Actually, I presume that if the US was not involved in the emergence of Saddam in Iraq, Iraq would have been better off. So in the end you got rid of your Frankenstein, and destroyed the country to do so. Oh, hurrah.

[kr] “The US is the best friend Iraq could have, or its worst enemy. And it really depends on the Iraqis, not you.”

Oh, you’re such a man! What a marine! In other words, what you are saying is: do as the US says or we incinerate you. This doesn’t surprise me, coming from the Al Capone of countries. It likewise neither surprises me that YOU support this attitude. Please, keep talking.

[kr] “The so called "chuminess" with Sunnis is not chuminess, but an ongoing effort to recruit and incorporate them into the new Iraq.”

In other words, despite the “new Iraqi” government being opposed to the US arming of Sunni militias and especially Al Qaeda members … you somehow find it appropriate for the US to decide what is good for Iraq and what is not? Where’s the democracy? Where’s the sovereignty?

Again, “good” is Pro-US and “evil” is “anti US”, with the nice Amreekans deciding which is which. The Iraqi government, such as it is, can take a leap into the Tigris, right?

[kr] “Why are you so interested in creating rift between Shias and Sunnis? Oh...that's right - you LIKE this war.”

Au contraire, dear Kryp, AMERICA is continuing to arm and recruit Iraqis on sectarian grounds, and very soon it will attempt to use these same Sunni militias against the Shiite Iraqis. AMERICA was, is, and will continue to be the sole beneficiary of Iraqi sectarian violence.

Oh, OK, Al Qaeda and the Badr murderers as well, but then, you’re recruiting THOSE too, aren’t you?

If Iraqi Sunna and Shia had stood together, as in 2004, you Amreekans would have been ejected long ago, that's the truth.

"you mean like israel? the answer to your question is that i would like an article from our own intellegence community stating they have evidence iran has a nuclear weapons program."

The intelligence community doesn't publish, for the public, information about its clandestine efforts.

As far the difference between Israel and Iran, I would have to say that Iran is much more likely to sneak a dirty bomb into one of our ports than Israel. Just so your little brain can understand, America is not nearly as concerned about its allies having nuclear weapons as it would be about its enemies having nuclear weapons. Whether or not Iran actually has them at this point is moot. Its more important to know what Iran's true intentions are with its nuclear program, and they have not been forthcoming.

Annie,

do not define your parties by religious affiliation. try a little separation of church and state.

Yes, I agree. But unfortunately I don't live in Iraq. This may not be what they want, a separation of mosque and state. Omar supports this, but does the Kid? If we are truly to respect Iraq's sovereignty like Bruno keeps harping about, we have to tread very lightly in some areas.

someone needs to organize a mass meeting of tribal elders...

The post starting with this line up to the end that you wrote at 8:34 was very good, Annie. And these are things that are being tried in different areas of Iraq and outside the country.

This is something that is critical, Iraqis starting to work together. Our military can work on removing al-Qaida and Iranian backed milititas, but only Iraqis can work on the real reconciliation and rebuilding of Iraq.

Bruno,

What’s important to ME, Lynnette, is that (a) Iraq doesn’t fail completely as a state and (b) that the US gets the hell out and stops interfering with the people there.

Which is more important to you, Bruno, 'a' or 'b'? Because if 'b' happens prematurely 'a' may not be accomplished. That is what I and others have been trying to say.

No, you misjudge me entirely. I have not given up on democracy or sovereignty for Iraq at all. But I have come to understand that both are things that Iraq needs to grow into. They have never had democracy and don't really understand what to do with it. And in reality Iraqis themselves never have had a say in running Iraq. That was always Saddam's bailiwick. And when I say running I am not talking about the nuts and bolts, I am talking about the decision making processes.

Now that its apparent that the Maliki government is not working out so well...

You condemn us for supporting Maliki and you condemn us for trying to influence him, implying we are interfering with Iraq's sovereignty. This is a no win situation with you, Bruno. So you must understand why we ignore you.

"The media in the West are lying about Fallujah by saying everything is well...

I'm not sure who is saying all is well in Fallujah, or other areas of Iraq for that matter. That is not the case at all. What I have been trying to show with my links and the posts I have quoted from soldiers in Iraq, is that there are positive things going on. These things are a start. It will take years for Iraq to rebuild, physically and emotionally.

Take Fallujah and the Muthanna brigade as an example. Send some Shia to patrol Sunni areas, and voila! They will kill each other instead of Americans.

So, from this I take it to mean you disapprove of Shiites patrolling in Sunni areas? Yet, the Sunni areas need security too. So who is to patrol? Maybe...Sunnis?

I PREDICTED years ago that the US would inevitably turn its back on the Shiites and try to recruit the Sunnis to its cause...

Hmmm...

I do believe I detect convoluted logic here.

"I have to point out, Kryp, that Iraq was far better off and far more functional BEFORE America got there."

True. Dictatorships can be very functional. Nevertheless, did you really expect for Iraq to become a full on member of the G-9 immediately? Its been only 5 years. It took Japan 15 to emerge from the rubble of world war 2. Change does not happen overnight.

"Right now, under American tutelage, everything is falling apart."

Well, that's because of those "patriotic insurgents" you are so fond of. There aren't really enough americans in Iraq for it to be considered "under american tutelage."

"Actually, I presume that if the US was not involved in the emergence of Saddam in Iraq, Iraq would have been better off."

Do you ever address issues, or do you just try to divert any chance you get? Let's try to stick to this century.

"what you are saying is: do as the US says or we incinerate you."

Ummm, no. You're being dramatic again. If Iraq's governemnt is hostile to the US, the US is not going to be friendly back. Why would you expect hostility to be met with friendship?

"In other words, despite the “new Iraqi” government being opposed to the US arming of Sunni militias and especially Al Qaeda members … you somehow find it appropriate for the US to decide what is good for Iraq and what is not?"

I forgot - its your job to decide what is good for iraq.

"Where’s the democracy? Where’s the sovereignty?"

That's up to the Iraqis.

"Au contraire, dear Kryp, AMERICA is continuing to arm and recruit Iraqis on sectarian grounds, and very soon it will attempt to use these same Sunni militias against the Shiite Iraqis. AMERICA was, is, and will continue to be the sole beneficiary of Iraqi sectarian violence."

This is wrong. America benefits much more from a friendly unified Iraq, than 3 extremist pseudo states. Although, I can understand why someone like you, addicted to drama and conflict, would seek continued fighting...

bruno: "I PREDICTED years ago that the US would inevitably turn its back on the Shiites and try to recruit the Sunnis to its cause, at a time when people were laughing at these assertions of mine."

I'm STILL laughing at you, because we haven't turned our backs on the Shia. Despite annie's sudden affection for pulling a Mossadeq on Maliki, it hasn't happened. Despite what you say about abandoning the Shia, we STILL train the IA and IP, even though we ARE trying to make them less sectarian.

As for recruiting Sunnis, we've tried to for years, starting with getting them involved in the interim elections (that they boycotted), giving them representation on the constitutional committee anyway, and so on.

And we've been talking about reconcilliation for years. This isn't news. The "news" is that they are FINALLY taking us up on it, instead of fighting us and the gov't or pursuing Saddam's grand scorched-Earth strategy, and/or aligning themselves with jihadis to do the same, but with even more violence.

So it's no surprise that you are in full-on damage control mode, and annie is running around in circles in panic.

If Iraq succeeds you guys fail. Suck it. And godspeed, Iraq!

[kr] “The US is the best friend Iraq could have, or its worst enemy. And it really depends on the Iraqis, not you.”

i agree w/bruno..do as the US says or we incinerate you. keep talking


The intelligence community doesn't publish, for the public, information about its clandestine efforts.

hu? this is your response to israel having nukes? i didn't kow it was legal by international standards for a country to have secret nukes. if it is, than iran has the same right as israel.

If we are truly to respect Iraq's sovereignty like Bruno keeps harping about, we have to tread very lightly in some areas.

i would say our 'light treading' has served to divide iraq by sect. why?, because the plan is to divide iraq into 3 states. the suggestions i made wrt separation of church and state had nothing to do w/'our treading'. in fact 'our treading' did nothing to discourage an opposite outcome. whether iraqis can accomplish this remains to be seem. it stands to reason tho, that as long as political parties 'stand for' or 'in' support of, or are led by, a religious figure, it will be impossible to have a secular government. look at the impact of having 130 new employees of the justice department come directly from a religious law school who principle foundation is to abolish a separation of church and state. this was done without publicity. we have parties taking cues from religious leaders bringing bills before congress to divide people along religious lines.

frankly i find it amusing that the same people who carry water for these religious fanatics are getting caught violating the accepted norms of the church. an example is the WH liason to africa that was in charge of fighting aids, promoting.. abstinence only. millions of dollars in aid that could have gone to medicine or preventative measures all spent exclusively on.. abstinence... and he gets busted in the hooker scandal. ok, i m getting off course.
listen to the audio on this link. this guy was invited to speak at the pentagon .

The hotspot of the world, the centerpiece of the world right now is the Middle East and there is turmoil unprecedented there. We have it in Iraq, we have it in the nation of Israel, we have the Palestinians against the Israelis, and we have all that turmoil going on, and the world is crying out for someone who can bring peace to the troubled section of the world. Folk, there's going to come a man that's gonna to seemingly have in his pocket, when he steps onto the stage of human history, a peace plan that's gonna answer all the Palestinian-Israeli problem, bring all peace to Iraq, there's gonna be a guy that's seemingly gonna seem to have the answer and his title is AntiChrist....

that is what they believe. that the person who can broker peace in the middle east is a sign of the devil (anti christ) and a sign the rapture is coming.

this is why they don't offer any real options for negotiations and never plan on it. do they announce this? no, but all you have to do is follow their teachings. now they are trying to rewrite american history.

the idea that the anti christ will try to broker peace between israel and palestine fuels the christian right which fuels those who wish to control the middle east. apocalpytic christianity has become enshrined as the de-facto government endorsed religion, in the headquarters of the most powerful armed forces on earth.

so, this whole thing about 'treading lightly'? we aren't pushing for more of a separation, we have ushered iraq right into the position it is in changing what was once the most secular society in the middle east, and reforming it into the opposite to align w/ the scenarios fueling the voters the gop relies on to carry its party. aipac relies on them too. with this in mind, there is ample reason to want to purge thee religious fanatics. because what they have in mind is potentially much more dangerous to mankind than sharia law. they have nukes, and they have threatened to use them time and again. we have religious fanatics w/nukes. wake up people.

there is no difference between maliki meeting w/sistani and bush meeting w/dobsen and that ilk

i would like to call attention to israels use of fueling religious factions to divide people and use that tool to avoid peace.

Though not responsible for the establishment of the Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine in the 1940s, Israel tacitly encouraged it after 1967. By turning a blind eye to Palestinian fundamentalist movements and using them as a counterforce to the nationalist PLO, Israel allowed them to become fully established and armed. Most Palestinians were not fundamentalist, but since the second intifada in 2000, the failure of the Oslo Accords and the collapse of secular resistance, Islamists have won support for their uncompromising opposition to Israel. This accounts for the Hamas victory in the Palestinian elections in 2006.

"this is your reorsponse to israel having nukes?"

What? My response to israel having nukes is, well, i'm not worried about israel using them against me. i am, however, worried about iran using them against me, because iran is hostile to the US.

"i didn't kow it was legal by international standards for a country to have secret nukes."

What? So iran MUST not have a nukes program because it would be illegal for them to have one without declaring. That's rich.

"if it is, than iran has the same right as israel."

There are no international laws granting the "right" to have nukes. You've proved yourself an idiot once again.

In any event, even if there were such "rights", that doesn't mean the US should not defend itself against countries seeking its destruction.

The Air Force announced that all flights of fighters and bombers in the United States will be halted on September 14 to allow for a review of procedures.

hold onto your hats. were they doing some big review on 9/11 which supposedly accounted for why they thought the highjacking was part of some fake test or something?

we'll always be the last to know

"The intelligence community doesn't publish, for the public, information about its clandestine efforts.

hu? this is your response to israel having nukes?"

No. This was my response to your assertions that anything the US does in secret is automatically "evil" and that you have the right to know.

that doesn't mean the US should not defend itself against countries seeking its destruction.

excuse me!! iran is not seeking the destruction of the US.

"i didn't know it was legal by international standards for a country to have secret nukes."

What? So iran MUST not have a nukes program because it would be illegal for them to have one without declaring.

don't change the subject. i was asking about israel. is it legal for a country to have secret nukes? iran doesn't have nukes so we can't pre empt them by ten years and claim they are going to have them in a decade therefore we nuke them now. this is total bs.

Saying that terrorists could use private aircraft or small boats to smuggle a "dirty bomb" or nuclear device into the United States, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff told Congress Wednesday he will propose tightening rules regulating such craft

fear fear fear fear. this is your government talking.

This was my response to your assertions that anything the US does in secret is automatically "evil"

what assertion? you are just avoiding answering the question which was not about the US doing something in secret (although i am for certain we knew israel was building nukes, since we probably paid for them) this is about israel having secret nukes. is it legal?

no, it isn't. maybe somebody thinks they should be pre meptively nuked because they may use them.? do you see where this is heading...

really, you are so full of it. total war, a new middle east, world war three, a nuclear holocaust, really, this constant drumbeat of war.. do you really think peoplec an't figure out what is going on???? just lots of excuses to fund the war machine.

we are a rogue nation w/nukes. israal is out little proxy in the ME. there is no difference between our policies because the counries are ruled by essentially the same entities. i am fed up w/this.

"iran is not seeking the destruction of the US."

Iranians have been chanting "Death to America" ever Friday after prayers since 1979. But I guess that doesn't mean they really want to destroy us. LOL...

Check out this Comedy Central clip of Iranian American Maz Jobrani making fun of Arabs and Persians.

US combat helicopters and tanks bombarded a Baghdad neighbourhood in pre-dawn strikes on Thursday, killing 14 sleeping civilians and destroying houses, angry residents and Iraqi officials said.

i have better taste in comedians than you

"excuse me!! iran is not seeking the destruction of the US."

I beg to differ.

"is it legal? no, it isn't."

If Israel's nukes are "secret" then how would anyone know if they have them or not? Apart from your totally illogical statement, I don't care if Israel has illegal nukes or legal nukes. I have no fear that Israel is going to use their nukes against me.

Iran, on the other hand, is hostile towards the US, and would US their nukes against me.

The legality is secondary.

"we are a rogue nation w/nukes. israal is out little proxy in the ME. there is no difference between our policies because the counries are ruled by essentially the same entities. i am fed up w/this."

Now THIS is fearmongering. Continue your drumbeat towards war. It would be a really stupid mistake on your part.

Ahmed Ahmed and Dean Obeidallah are funny too. They and Maz Jobrani are all part of the Axis of Evil Comedy Tour.

Read it and screech, annie.

IT has become conventional wisdom that the decision to disband Saddam Hussein’s army was a mistake, was contrary to American prewar planning and was a decision I made on my own. In fact the policy was carefully considered by top civilian and military members of the American government. And it was the right decision.

i can't believe anyone still listens to anything bremmer has to say. oh, the favorite 'liberal' fishwrap of blathering WH cronies.

the same paper that held back the nsa spying story till after the election to serve ushering bush into power and another four years of hell for the american public and iraq. this is the rightwings idea of liberal press? presumably to set the idea that anything more rational is so far out on the left fringes of journalism not to even be considered. what a waste of time.

Thanks annie!

listen and scream

Thanks annie!

Uh oh...annie's getting upset now. she's starting to bring up discredited sources to show how "evil" america is and distract us from the real issues being discussed right now.

That Bremmer article was right on. Perfectly driving a stake through several of Annie's and Bruno's bogus non-arguments.

annie's getting upset now.

is that your interpretation of what a waste of time.

lol, from a guy who thru a bonafide hissy fit over me saying i felt like ringing his neck....what was it you were saying then??

whatever, keep slapping yourselves on the back, it's amusing.

meanwhile, back in reality.. it seems you guys are not scoring to well in your latest propaganda routine. even juan cole (moderate etc) is onto you..


The point of the elaborately staged Anbar soundbite was not to tout the claimed (modest) success of the Surge--that has been done many multiple times in the briefings, the "dog and pony shows," given to visiting congressmen, journalists, and analysts. Rather, it was to build up an alternative story of political success in response to the clear failure of political reconciliation among the contending parties in the Government of Iraq.


yawn, violence in baghdad has predictably escalated upward along with the number of troops put into action, so the 'virtual ceasefire' in anbar can be conflated with the surge to create the appearance of something resembling a tactical epiphany, a whole new way, that might guarantee success, if only given more time to work its magic. yawn. when arming your former enemies is the last and only tactic that can yield any concrete evidence of progress... this is especially true considering that the deal in anbar has NOTHING to do with the surge tactic in baghdad.

and now, onto our horny heros. pbs, tomorrow...

Roughly one in seven of America’s active duty military soldiers is a woman, but a NOW investigation found that sexual assault and rape is widespread. One study of National Guard and Reserve forces found that almost one in four women had been assaulted or raped. Last year alone, almost 3,000 soldiers reported sexual assault and rape by other soldiers. On Friday, September 7 (check your local listings), in one of the only national television broadcasts of the issue, NOW features women who speak out for the first time about what happened. One woman recounts her ordeal of rape by her superior officer. Many more don’t report the incidents for fear of how it will affect their careers. The shocking phenomenon has a label: military sexual trauma, or MST. NOW meets women courageously battling to overcome their MST, bringing light to an issue that’s putting the army in shame. A NOW exclusive investigation.

yuk, another reason not to join the military.. unless you want to keep company w/lots of perverts. (some w/homocidal tendencies)

krypt, bremmers op ed is hardly a 'real issue', nor is comedy, neither of which i initiated. if you want to get off topic, i know how to do ti to.

btw rhus, you are welcome. i also want to thanks you for repeatedly mentioning uruknet, i finally decided to find out what all the bruha was about and tailed it over there. some interesting informative views...

Juan Cole's a moderate to you?? No wonder you admire other 'centrists'... like Stalin and Hussein!

Anyway, keep running around in circles in full-on panic mode.

If Iraq succeeds you guys fail. Suck it. And godspeed, Iraq!

uh oh

State Department official says political solution 'hopeless'

The confidential version of Congress' Congressional Research Report on Iraq declares that Iraq's government is "in collapse," according to the New York Daily News' James Meek, who first acquired the report.

The report was completed Aug. 15 for the House and Senate, as President Bush geared up for a fresh battle with Congress over his intent to 'stay the course.'

RAW STORY acquired a copy of the report from the Daily News. It can be read here in the original (PDF).

"My assessment is that because of the number and breadth of parties boycotting the cabinet, the Iraqi government is in essential collapse," Kenneth Katzman, the author of the report, said, according to Meek. "That argues against any real prospects for political reconciliation."

Without a political infrastructure in Iraq, any military progress would be short-lived, he added.

As a whole, the 62-page report is typical of those conducted by the Congressional Research Service, a nonpartisan arm of Congress tasked with investigating topics of interest to members. The report pontificates on myriad aspects of Iraq's political, economic and security challenges.

Katzman questions the troop surge in the report.

"I would even question the military progress," he also declared.

A top diplomat -- who remained unnamed -- told Meek any political solution to the war is now "hopeless."

"I would agree with that," Katzman said.

Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki is trying to stave off the collapse of his government while fending off rivals at a time when the country has already spun out of control.

The report said al-Maliki's government was "collapsing."

Read Meek's full piece here or the full report to Congress here.

go to the link for the links to the 'here' links

spin it guys!

dudette rhus, cole started out pro invasion... massive (everything) shia supporter from way back. not exactly embraced by the left. oh, but the israel lobby doesn't like him, not neocon friendly. i guess in your boof that makes him fringy radical! ha!

OUCH

"This comes as a big surprise and it is definitely worrying,"

spin it guys!

annie: "cole started out pro invasion..."

So did most of the dems in Congress.

suck it, annie!

suck it rhus

Are you the superior Francis?

"i also want to thanks you for repeatedly mentioning uruknet, i finally decided to find out what all the bruha was about and tailed it over there. some interesting informative views..."

You're kidding, right? Bruno's been linking to them for years, and you just NOW discover them? Does that mean you scroll his propaganda too? ha ha ha ha ha

Makes me wonder where you DO get your stuff from. That top-secret Stalinist message board of yours, perhaps?

[bruno] “What’s important to ME, Lynnette, is that (a) Iraq doesn’t fail completely as a state and (b) that the US gets the hell out and stops interfering with the people there.”
[lynnette] “Which is more important to you, Bruno, 'a' or 'b'? Because if 'b' happens prematurely 'a' may not be accomplished. That is what I and others have been trying to say.”

LOL! Again, we are faced with the equating of America with stability, when its patently obvious that the destruction of the Iraqi state and Iraqi society began with the INVASION OF IRAQ in 2003. But no, that wasn’t good enough, was it? No, the US had to disband the army, and call in the ultra-sectarian BADR BRIGADE to make the core of a new Iraqi army. Iraq’s sectarian woes began there. Clearly, continued US presence is not good for Iraqi society. The sooner (b) happens, the sooner Iraqis can sit down and negotiate in earnest about their future, without outsiders pulling and plucking at the puppet strings.

[lynnette] “No, you misjudge me entirely. I have not given up on democracy or sovereignty for Iraq at all. But I have come to understand that both are things that Iraq needs to grow into.”

Well, I’ve decided that America is abusing their democracy. By electing an obvious moron and incompetent like Bush twice in a row, you have demonstrated that you lack the intelligence and maturity to make proper informed decisions. Evidently Americans are unable to deal with the processes involved. So, I’m hereby suspending the “democracy” you have and liberating you from tyranny. Please fasten your seatbelts, the bombardment will commence at dawn.

Gee, I hope the solution doesn’t sound too radical. It’s all for the best. This method is the proven SOP and best practice as espoused by America. Even if it takes 50 years, your country will be rebuilt and re-introduced to democratic practices and true sovereignty.

[bruno] Now that its apparent that the Maliki government is not working out so well...
[lynnette] You condemn us for supporting Maliki and you condemn us for trying to influence him, implying we are interfering with Iraq's sovereignty. This is a no win situation with you, Bruno. So you must understand why we ignore you.

Let me explain gently.

(1) Since even your own president admits that elections under occupation are illegitimate (Lebanon-Syria) and since the electoral process was so rife with fraud, I do indeed condemn it as an unworkable, illegitimate regime.

(2) The US says it IS legitimate, and it IS sovereign.

(3) Supporting this government is therefore a logical act –WITHIN THE US FRAME OF REFERENCE – since you see it like that. I still oppose this because I see it as illegitimate.

(4) Undermining the Maliki government through arming and organising its enemies (some of which I support) via setting up of tribal militias is NOT respecting its sovereignty. Running a parallel intelligence agency is NOT respecting its sovereignty. Using coercion in order to get it to bend its will to yours is NOT respecting its sovereignty.

(5) In other words, while I don’t support the Maliki government, I STILL reserve the right to point out RAMPANT AMERICAN HYPOCRISY with regards to the concepts of democracy and sovereignty of the Maliki government.

(6) America is therefore playing a DOUBLE GAME by paying lip service to Iraqi sovereignty while actually undermining it whenever it is convenient. I’m here to point out your own double game to you. It does not mean, however, that I’m inconsistent in MY position.

[lynnette] “What I have been trying to show with my links and the posts I have quoted from soldiers in Iraq, is that there are positive things going on.”

There have been “positive things” happening for YEARS now, and yet Iraq is worse than ever.

A landslide destroys a city. A little girl is found alive on a tree. Well, now that was a positive development, wasn’t it? Hurrah, let’s have that happen again.

[bruno]Take Fallujah and the Muthanna brigade as an example. Send some Shia to patrol Sunni areas, and voila! They will kill each other instead of Americans.
[lynnette] So, from this I take it to mean you disapprove of Shiites patrolling in Sunni areas?

No, you can take it to mean that I disapprove of the US using sectarian differences to turn Iraqi violence away from itself and into the Iraqi community.

[bruno] I PREDICTED years ago that the US would inevitably turn its back on the Shiites and try to recruit the Sunnis to its cause...
[lynnette] Hmmm... I do believe I detect convoluted logic here.

The truth may seem convoluted to those that are unused to it.

bruno: "I PREDICTED years ago that the US would inevitably turn its back on the Shiites and try to recruit the Sunnis to its cause, at a time when people were laughing at these assertions of mine."
[rhus] I'm STILL laughing at you, because we haven't turned our backs on the Shia.

It’s a process, Rhus. It doesn’t happen overnight.

[rhus] “As for recruiting Sunnis, we've tried to for years, starting with getting them involved in the interim elections (that they boycotted), giving them representation on the constitutional committee anyway, and so on.”

Oh, riiiight. What you’ve done for years, instead, was to bomb, terrorise and intimidate them into acquiescence. Fact is, they took the fight to you and then some. At the beginning of this war they were characterised as “Baathists, dead-enders and terrorists”. When the Anbar Shiekhs approached the US right in the beginning, you treated them like dirt, telling them they had no place in a new Iraq.

[rhus] “The "news" is that they are FINALLY taking us up on it, instead of fighting us and the gov't”

NOW, all of a sudden, it’s the lynchpin of the strategy that you implausibly claim you have “always” been following? Is this victory? I dunno, Rhus. Imagine that in WW2 the Allies decided that it was best to have the Nazis in power after all, and claimed it was “victory”. Plausible?

Strange to relate, your comment is a little unconvincing, since the Iraqis that you are “allying” with make it clear that they are against both long term US presence and the Maliki government.

I have no problem with having the Iraqi people empowered.

I have a problem however, with the US USING THEM AS CANNONFODDER in the event of a strike on Iran. And that is what it boils down to. Recruiting proxies to use against other Iraqis in a fight for influence. Making Iraqis die for YOUR twisted, sick, agendas.

[rhus] “So it's no surprise that you are in full-on damage control mode”

Eisenhower (Rhusenhower?): “Victory is at hand! The Germans have finally decided to stop fighting us and come aboard. Together with the Nazis we will build a new and prosperous Europe. Seig heil!”

:lol:

Your capacity for self-deception is limitless, Rhus.

I refer:


http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/03/05/070305fa_fact_hersh

“The new strategy “is a major shift in American policy—it’s a sea change,” a U.S. government consultant with close ties to Israel said. The Sunni states “were petrified of a Shiite resurgence, and there was growing resentment with our gambling on the moderate Shiites in Iraq,” he said. “We cannot reverse the Shiite gain in Iraq, but we can contain it.” “It seems there has been a debate inside the government over what’s the biggest danger—Iran or Sunni radicals,” Vali Nasr, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, who has written widely on Shiites, Iran, and Iraq, told me. “The Saudis and some in the Administration have been arguing that the biggest threat is Iran and the Sunni radicals are the lesser enemies. This is a victory for the Saudi line.”
[…]
Patrick Clawson, an expert on Iran and the deputy director for research at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, argued, however, that closer ties between the United States and moderate or even radical Sunnis could put “fear” into the government of Prime Minister Maliki and “make him worry that the Sunnis could actually win” the civil war there. Clawson said that this might give Maliki an incentive to coöperate with the United States in suppressing radical Shiite militias, such as Moqtada al-Sadr’s Mahdi Army.”

'Imagine that in WW2 the Allies decided that it was best to have the Nazis in power '

Read your history---FORMER Nazis did play a big part in the first post war years of rebuilding German society.

'The recent publication of some 27,000 pages of secret CIA documents has brought to light new details regarding the close ties between the political elite in post-war Germany and leading Nazis who survived the collapse of the Third Reich.'

What is happening is exactly what many of us thought would have to happen. Iraq was going to go through a period of chaos until enough of the people within the society had suffered to the point of true surrender. It should have happened in the first year of the war instead of drawing it out, but it has reached the tipping point, finally. Tribalism, sectarianism, nationalism has to take a secondary position to survival and society must be torn down to be rebuilt. That has been the case throughout history where an outside force has invaded another country and successfully 'conquered' its enemy.

A better strategy would have been to allow the society to completely collapse to the point of starvation and pestilence, until each city and village begged for assistance and any resistance to the outside forces was put down from the citizens themselves. It has worked every time it has been tried. Maintaining just enough security and function to allow the populace to hang on to the past only prolongs the suffering. Unfortunately, recognition of so many things that we instinctively know is true, is not politically correct.

Example: We should be telling the people of Iran that we don't wish to annihilate them, but that is exactly what we will do if they don't overthrow their regime. Telling them we are not at war with them, but with their government, is replicating the initial Iraq mistake. When they fail to reform from within, we should destroy their society without regret. The sooner the enemy is truly defeated, the sooner the rebuilding can begin, to the benefit of all.

rhus, while i've read articles from the uruknet site in the past, i just have had never checked out there home page and scrolled their articles. you may not have noticed, but primarily i link to msm reports on my posts.

Makes me wonder where you DO get your stuff from.

most of the blogs i read link to msm reports. i also read badger(the original, not the one you and lyn get your reports from) who translates arab press. i don't link to the blogs i get my news because i don't want to see you in the comments there. i could care less if you comment at crooks and liars or fdl, because i rarely read or contribute to their comment section. they both reference primarily msm reports also. i also read the newyorker (cover to cover), the nation, harpers, and other well established news sources.

bruno By electing an obvious moron and incompetent like Bush twice in a row, you have demonstrated that you lack the intelligence and maturity to make proper informed decisions.

bruno, i am surprised, especially after all the disclosures coming out of the DA scandal, that anybody doesn't see the depths of decay in our elections. do you really think after florida and ohio bush won either of the last elections? the only reason those states garnered the attention they did was because they were the deciding states. they cheating was widespread, not islolated to just a few states. this is only one reason i don't believe we live in a democracy.

check out bradblog or votersunite.org for ongoing election fraud coverage.

I'm STILL laughing at you, because we haven't turned our backs on the Shia.

still sleepy eyed rhus?

The four Marines assigned to Multi National Force - West were killed Thursday while conducting combat operations in Anbar

i wonder if they are going to try to suppress this til after Pets report.

oh my, some more exciting news from the SITE institute (remember ms katz? the zealot who provides us w/all the up and coming terrorist news from yemen message boards? i guess having you father excecuted by saddam for being a spy for israel could lead one to ... whatever.)

Bin Laden Plans Video on 9/11

did somebody say mosaad? lol, i didn't really say that did i? moving right along.

Osama bin Laden will release a new video in the coming days ahead of the sixth anniversary of the Sept. 11 attacks in what would be the first new images of the terror mastermind in nearly three years, al-Qaida's media arm announced Thursday.

The White House said any new video from bin Laden would serve to highlight threats the West faces

yawn.

``I think it works for their (al-Qaida's) benefit that he looks young, he looks healthy,'' Katz said.

the video is expected within the next 72 hours! i'm sure it will be good. from the same people who brought us the 'hero's meeting' no doubt.

The Mujahideen had made preparations to greet them until it was possible to bring them together with Zarqawi, and the "Heroes' meeting" took place . . . In an atmosphere full of enthusiasm and high spirits for everybody, with the company of his three sons and a number of Mujahideen, Izzat Ibrahim Al Douri took off to meet with Abu Mussab Al Zarqawi. At their arrival, the Mujahideen greeted them amidst calls of "Allah Akbar" (3 times) [God is Greater]. Then the sound of gunfire was heard as Zarqawi rushed out, surrounded by the Mujahideen, covered by the dust of their blessed journey," according to the network. It added that, at the sight of Zarqawi, Izzat Ibrahim shouted: "You are the commander and we are your soldiers." His son Ahmad handed him a copy of the Quran. His father took it, placed his hand and the hands of his sons on it, and they made an oath to God, pledging allegiance to Zarqawi in the Jihad until victory or martyrdom, in good and bad times."

past gems from the weekly standard!

lol, can't wait to see what osama has to say. he has such imppecable timing! that ms katz, what an asset.

one would think that AQ has some connections in hollywood, i swear they are so well scripted.

24STL said:

"But you have to know that the [progress] propaganda you are hearing now is targeting the worlds outside Iraq because they are preparing for the withdrawal. I said that almost a year ago."

Actually, its quite the opposite. Progress justifies continued effort. Absence of progress, or hopelessness, justifies withdrawl. In this regard, relentless criticism of Al Maliki, the kind of criticism that "he can never work out," has the effect of adding to the notion that this is just one big ongoing boondoggle. Why support what can't work and can never change for the better? Please read this article, with the same caveat that you read the work product of any journalist.

Democrats are also worried that they may be losing their political edge on the war, especially as a few congressional Democrats have publicly noted the signs of progress after returning from trips to Iraq.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0907/5679.html

aga.. that part you put in italics is just gop spin. you do you know dems are 'worried' about their 'edge' because of signs of 'progress? they are worried about their 'edge' because they keep voting against the wishes of the majority who put them in office.

here a piece of total bull (lie included)from your article..

Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.) and House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) are calculating that it is futile to continue their months-long campaign to force an immediate end to the war

neither reid nor pelosi have ever called for an immediate withdrawl, ever. go find a piece of legislation either one of them ever endorsed asking for this, you can't because it doesn't exist. i dare you.

your entire article is gop framing spin. and i am not even a dem fan.


The new approach is something of a preemptive strike for Democrats. They anticipate snippets of good news from Army Gen. David Petraeus

lol, surely you don't think people are going to fall for this do you? this is a feel good article for republicans.

annie,you need a reality check. Seriously,your mind is a sick and twisted thing. Osama isn't a hollywood creation. Reports of progress don't indicate a master plan to abandon Iraq. And nobody wants to read every errant thought passing through your three brain cells. Get some help woman.

Annie:

I stand by my point regardless of your assault on the article. The article was illustrative, and I thought that it was something that exemplified my point in a manner that would assist 24STL in seeing my point. Perhaps you shared my assessment concerning the article's efficacy and that this is the reason for your investment of time in attacking its credibility?

I have yet to hear someone say, "The Iraqis are making progress, there's hope that the goverment has turned the corner and is beginning to provide services and security, so let's bail." Rather absurd, isn't it? Take an example in a different context, that of a small startup company. They make special effort to document their "progress" so that their investors will continue to invest. Its the lack of progress, the lack of hope of eventual success that kills the investment. The principle is really the same.

You are someone who doesn't really care about the startup, whether it succeeds or fails, so long as the investors lose their investment. 24STL is someone whose principal concern is for the startup, and I just wanted him to know that investors don't identify progress in a company that they want to divest from. Additionally, some of the investors care more about the startup than their investment, and are willing to risk it all for the startup. I am one of those.

Bruno @ 1:12 AM, items 1) thru 6): sounds like you want to have your cake, and criticize it, too!

Me: "I'm STILL laughing at you, because we haven't turned our backs on the Shia."

Bruno: "It’s a process, Rhus. It doesn’t happen overnight."

Well if it HAPPENS I'll quit laughin'. But for now...
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Of course, you have a vested interest in interpreting anything we do to lean on Maliki from now on as "turning our backs on the Shia".
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Bruno: "When the Anbar Shiekhs approached the US right in the beginning, you treated them like dirt, telling them they had no place in a new Iraq."

Part of that was a mistake, part of it was due to their amiable relationship with AQ. recall again the turnover of security to the "Fallujah Brigade" in '04, and how that turned out. They weren't ready, nor were they strong enough to kick out AQ on their own, as you've theorized they would & could.

Bruno: "Imagine that in WW2 the Allies decided that it was best to have the Nazis in power after all, and claimed it was “victory”. Plausible?"

Imagine that in WWII the Allies decided to separate the "Nazis" from the "Germans" and to destroy & marginalize the former while empowering the latter and helping them rebuild & recover?

But but but didn't regular Germans shoot at us also during the war? But but but didn't they also have an amiable relationship with the Nazis? Of course. But then they stopped. And I'm sure they weren't too keen on the US presence there, either, at first. Especially given all the destruction, rapes, EJP, and so on.

Reconcilliation and reconstruction are also processes, Bruno.

Bruno: "I have no problem with having the Iraqi people empowered."

I call BS on this. You have BIG problems with Iraqis being empowered if they are NOT fighting Amreeka. If that was true, you'd quit running in circles trying to find a way to undermine Iraq's long-overdue progress. How did you put it again? Something like "as long as one Iraqi fighter remains to oppose the US, I'd support him". One fighter versus an entire empowered nation? Your priorities are crystal clear.

Bruno: "Eisenhower (Rhusenhower?): "

You can compare me to Eisenhower if you want. Ummm... thanks?

anonymous: "annie,you need a reality check"

annie and reality are like oil and water.

Annie doesn't believe in terrorism. Tell that to its victims:

"WASHINGTON - Iran must pay $2.65 billion to the families of the 241 U.S. service members killed in the 1983 bombing of the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut, a federal judge declared Friday in a ruling that left survivors and families shedding tears of joy.

U.S. District Judge Royce C. Lamberth described his ruling as the largest-ever such judgment by an American court against another country. "These individuals, whose hearts and souls were forever broken, waited patiently for nearly a quarter century for justice to be done," he said.

Iran has been blamed for supporting the militant group Hezbollah, which carried out the suicide bombing in Beirut. It was the worst terrorist act against U.S. targets until the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks.

Hundreds of people crowded into a federal courtroom to hear Friday's ruling. Parents have grown old since their children were killed. Siblings have grown into middle-age. Children have married and started families of their own.

Weeping spectators stood and erupted in applause and hugs as Lamberth left the bench.

The ruling allows nearly 1,000 family members and a handful of survivors to try to collect Iranian assets from various sources around the world. Finding and seizing that money will be difficult, however, and the families are backing a law in Congress that would make it easier for terrorism victims and their families to do so.

Families were encouraged by Libya's decision to ultimately accept responsibility for the 1988 bombing of a Pan Am flight over Scotland. The country, once a pariah by Washington's view, agreed to compensate the families of the 270 victims. Part of the $2.7 billion has been paid. A final $2 million installment to each family is outstanding.

"This is a sense of victory, of winning a battle," said Paul Rivers, who was a 20-year-old enlisted Marine on the second floor of the barracks when it exploded. "When we win the war is when we collect, when we make them pay for what they did.'"

IN the words of Rhus - suck it, Annie.

aga, you make an interesting point.

a small startup company. They make special effort to document their "progress" so that their investors will continue to invest.

exactly. lets call that start up company "cheney gets iraq". and who are the financial investors?? thats right, the american people!

I just wanted him to know that investors don't identify progress in a company that they want to divest from.

you're right. and in this case the investors aren't identifying progress. the beneficiaries of the investment are. the people trying to get their new company off the ground. they don't have to sell it to themselves silly!

You are someone who doesn't really care about the startup, whether it succeeds or fails, so long as the investors lose their investment.

you are wrong. i care very much that cheney never ever gets iraq. as a forced investor naturally i don't want to loose the money i am being forced to invest in iraqs resourced being robbed for the sake of greedy people, but for me that is secondary. i am more concerned about the damage,all the waste and pollution being created to form this new company. do you know what that waste is?


I just wanted him to know that investors don't identify progress in a company that they want to divest from

and apparently you are willing to use lies to get your point across. i noticed you did not take me up on my challenge!

neither reid nor pelosi have ever called for an immediate withdrawl, ever. go find a piece of legislation either one of them ever endorsed asking for this

here is something you said i completely agree with

some of the investors care more about the startup than their investment, and are willing to risk it all for the startup. I am one of those.

america needs control of iraq resources to continue the global domination plan. those who recognize that will risk everything to make sure that plan is carried out. even if it means stripping everyhting from the investors, the american people.(money, reputation, blood and treasure, everything) not to mention how much it devastates iraq or iraqis, because they are irrelevant to the people who want the start up to succeed.

Perhaps you shared my assessment concerning the article's efficacy and that this is the reason for your investment of time in attacking its credibility?

you're an easy mark aga. that article was the bulls eye. consider it sport. my favorite line was the "snippets of good news" from the pet. ha!there is a real desparado air about Pet right now, why last night the new your sun (neocon fishwrap) had an op ed calling for betrayus for prez. lol

annie,you need a reality check. Seriously,your mind is a sick and twisted thing. Osama isn't a hollywood creation. Reports of progress don't indicate a master plan to abandon Iraq. And nobody wants to read every errant thought passing through your three brain cells. Get some help woman

blahter bla bla... i don't think osama is a hollywood creation. i think the scripts they write for him are. i'm certainly not alone in speculating they are little psyops creations. Perhaps you shared my assessment and that this is the reason for your investment of time in attacking my credibility?

i think you must be confusing me w/Omar or aga or something wrt to progress/'masterplan' remark. i would never say anything like this but as a strawman i can see your value in using it.

if you don't want to read what i have to say just scroll when you see my name. it's easy!

"i don't think osama is a hollywood creation. i think the scripts they write for him are. i'm certainly not alone in speculating they are little psyops creations."

So he's reading from a CIA teleprompter in those videos? Oh my God. Someone send the men with butterfly nets.

"Iran must pay $2.65 billion to the families of the 241 U.S. service members killed in the 1983 bombing of the U.S. Marine barracks in Beirut, a federal judge declared Friday in a ruling that left survivors and families shedding tears of joy."

Wow, that's almost $11 million per family. I wonder if we can use that as a standard for each innocent Iraqi killed by US forces since 1991. hmmm...

^ I think the Baathist 'Resistance' has put the figure at $3 trillion for reparations.

So he's reading from a CIA teleprompter in those videos?

no, it isn't him at all. i posit he is a real person, or was, for all i know he's not alive anymore. i think someone or ones make fake videos to release either prior to our elections (04 wasn't it?) or to sink w/'special events'. just like i doubt there was a 'heros meeting'

Then the sound of gunfire was heard as Zarqawi rushed out, surrounded by the Mujahideen, covered by the dust of their blessed journey," according to the network.

the network? lol! you should really watch the bbc special 'the power of nightmares' . when seeing and hearing isn't believing

William M. Arkin, author of "The U.S. Military Online," is a leading expert on national security and the Internet. He lectures and writes on nuclear weapons, military matters and information warfare. An Army intelligence analyst from 1974-1978, Arkin currently consults for Washingtonpost.Newsweek Interactive, MSNBC and the Natural Resources Defense Council.

this was published in 99. nowadays msm doesn't cover this stuff. natch.

terrorism is a tactic that primarily relies on psychological impact. the psycos exploits the psychological realm. terrorism is being refined to the point that it no longer needs much in the way of material deed. the battlefield can play out in people's heads.

the "war on terror" can be seen as just that , a perpetual war economy made possible by psychologically terrorizing the population into supporting the national security apparatus & its doctrines, unilateral, preemptive aggression for expansionist imperial policies driven by energy security & leveling the playing field to ensure a global market economy infrastructure ordered to US/global elite interests.

nobody on the left takes these osama videos seriously, they are used by the right to hammer in their point. why? because we've all figured out the game.

"Wow, that's almost $11 million per family. I wonder if we can use that as a standard for each innocent Iraqi killed by US forces since 1991. hmmm..."

Yes, or every American/Israeli/Indian/...etc. killed by terrorists since the 1950s!

"Impassioned, hugely informative, wonderfully controversial, and scary as hell."
-John le Carre

i can't wait to read the shock doctrine

here's a short film, only 6 minutes, i highly recommend. an informed public is the enemy of the empire.


Yes, or every American/Israeli/Indian/...etc. killed by terrorists since the 1950s!

don't forget the vietnamese, palestinians, guatamalens, chileans.. etc...

"don't forget the vietnamese, palestinians, guatamalens, chileans.. etc..."

They weren't killed by terrorists. They were killed in war. There's a difference.

Hey annie- maybe Osama will take you as another wife? Probably wouldn;t matter to him if your are a woman or a 250# dude posting as one.

But surely you'll be ready to have him as your husband after reading this!!

annie,try thinking rationally about your conspiracy theory for a moment,and you'll see how totally impossible it is. First off,anyone involved in this "psyop" conspiracy would be put to death if it came to light. The government would fall,or at least those who are supposed to keep tabs on intelligence services would be sacked. The CIA would be disolved. It's not rational that ANYONE would risk all that just to benefit some defense contractors,and what you propose would take numerous conspirators.
And yes,I'm sure there are others that share your insanity. The Flat Earth Society boasts thousands of members. That doesn't mean any one of them is working with a full deck.

First off,anyone involved in this "psyop" conspiracy would be put to death if it came to light.

lol. did you see the little film? torture is psyops, it is terrorism, it is a conspiracy and it's not a few bad apples.

the whole illegal invasion was a conspiracy. thats why the lied to us. thats why the secret energy meetings are still kept secret, thats why this is the most secret adminstration ever, thats why they want all the executive power. it is totally a conspiracy and you are complict in it whether you know it or not. you are carrying water for this criminal conspiracy where the worst victims are the iraqis.

you should be ashamed to be part of it, i sure am.

The Flat Earth Society boasts thousands of members.

ah!! the war as the health of the state. speaking of flat earth.. reminds me

Put in Friedmanesque terms: Israel went from inventing the networking tools of the “flat world” to selling fences to an apartheid planet. Many of the country’s most successful entrepreneurs are using Israel’s status as a fortressed state, surrounded by furious enemies, as a kind of twenty-four-hour-a-day showroom—a living example of how to enjoy relative safety amid constant war. And the reason Israel is now enjoying supergrowth is that those companies are busily exporting that model to the world.

...

Much of this growth has been in the so-called “homeland security” sector. Before 9/11 homeland security barely existed as an industry. By the end of this year, Israeli exports in the sector will reach $1.2 billion—an increase of 20 percent. The key products and services are high-tech fences, unmanned drones, biometric IDs, video and audio surveillance gear, air passenger profiling and prisoner interrogation systems – precisely the tools and technologies Israel has used to lock-in the occupied territories.

And that is why the chaos in Gaza and the rest of the region doesn’t threaten the bottom line in Tel Aviv, and may actually boost it. Israel has learned to turn endless war into a brand asset, pitching its uprooting, occupation and containment of the Palestinian people as a half-century head start in the “global war on terror.”

war is big business guys! hey, according to you, what's a few trillion. hay anon, take your 'rational' and explain it to the families of people who have died in this little adventure called war.

Bruno:

Do you concur with Annie's theory that Bin Laden's videos are fakes produced by U.S. PsyOps teams to influence domestic politics? You seem to agree with her on many other theories which posit American treachery. Why the silence on this one? Has she now climbed so far out on a limb even you won't follow?

Mark-In-Chi-Town

"lol. did you see the little film? torture is psyops, it is terrorism, it is a conspiracy and it's not a few bad apples."

Torture is one thing. Calling for jihad against your own country is quite another. And that's exactly what you suggest these secret "psyop" people have done. Americans aren't going to execute someone for putting a head chopping psychopath in an awkward position. You better believe we'd hang any whackos that did what you suggest. High treason during war is a hanging offense.
You're a nut annie. And,you're too far gone to see it. Maybe those psyops people hired you to make the anti-war folks look bad. Or maybe you are doing it for free. And 24/7 at that.

This post has been removed by the author.

they may not be 'US' psyops teams, it could be ms katz's mossad buddies for all i know. why didn't you criticize the arkin piece?(When Seeing and Hearing Isn't Believing) do you think the leading expert on national security is lying? do you think the washington post publishes things totally fabricated?

It is the result of voice "morphing" technology developed at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico.

By taking just a 10-minute digital recording of Steiner's voice, scientist George Papcun is able, in near real time, to clone speech patterns and develop an accurate facsimile. Steiner was so impressed, he asked for a copy of the tape.

Steiner was hardly the first or last victim to be spoofed by Papcun's team members. To refine their method, they took various high quality recordings of generals and experimented with creating fake statements. One of the most memorable is Colin Powell stating "I am being treated well by my captors."

...... It is the result of voice "morphing" technology developed at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in New Mexico.;;;;

For Hollywood, it is special effects. For covert operators in the U.S. military and intelligence agencies, it is a weapon of the future.

"Once you can take any kind of information and reduce it into ones and zeros, you can do some pretty interesting things," says Daniel T. Kuehl, chairman of the Information Operations department of the National Defense University in Washington, the military's school for information warfare.

PSYOPS seeks to exploit human vulnerabilities in enemy governments, militaries and populations.
Digital morphing — voice, video, and photo — has come of age, available for use in psychological operations. PSYOPS, as the military calls it, seek to exploit human vulnerabilities in enemy governments, militaries and populations to pursue national and battlefield objectives.

To some, PSYOPS is a backwater military discipline of leaflet dropping and radio propaganda. To a growing group of information war technologists, it is the nexus of fantasy and reality. Being able to manufacture convincing audio or video, they say, might be the difference in a successful military operation or coup.

you can call me wacko all you want. my tax dollars have been spent developing information warfare. the last time bin laden graced us was 6 days before our presidential elections. all of these thing have been fed to us thru this SITE person, ms katz. why should i believe it. because my government wouldn't lie to me? please. what a joke.

And,you're too far gone to see it

i don't think most americans take these bin laden videos seriously. i'm sure fox news loves them. frankly, i was raised not to trust liars and thieves. don't you know the story of the boy who cried wolf.

we use people when it serves our purpose just like we did w/saddam. for all i know Kabir Mohabbat is telling the truth. i don't put it past this administration to use anyone to further their goals, including bin laden.

if his image can be used to continue the 'war on terror', why not? i'm sure it would be advantageous if we all thought psyops was floating messages out an airplane. sorry, i'm not buying it.

i don't do this 24/7. i work at a studio out of my home and have a lot to show for it. i have a deadline coming up.

i was posting in the wee hrs last night (which is rare) because i had to be up and check my kiln. i will be unloading it shortly so i'm kind of excited.

:)

i have blessed life and a wonderful family.

Bruno:

According to the CSMonitor (a credible center-left publication), the U.S. pressured the Maliki government to send a delegation to Anbar with promises of aid (120 million) and 6,000 government jobs. This appears to be the U.S. political strategy in action. Influential Democratic Senator Joeseph Biden was on hand to lecture the Maliki officials concerning the urgent need political reconcilliation. The link is
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0907/p01s01-woiq.html .

Bruno, have you considered that possibility that American politicians are playing a bit of good cop (we've got your back)/bad cop (we'll leave if you don't reconcile now) with Iraq's politicians to goad them toward political reconciliation? Whether the strategy will work is another question entirely.

Mark-In-Chi-Town

Thanks for that article, Mark. I think you're right.

Everyone must convert from false Islam to true Christianity. To see the difference simply put the Bible side by side with the Koran on a table in front of you and read the New Pentateuch (Mt. Mk, Lk, Jn, Rv which books contain most of the words of Jesus Christ) comparing it to the Koran. You'll find there is no comparison.

The Christian God is absolute spiritual perfection, and Jesus His only begotten Son is absolute perfection in human form.

Allah, the one who cannot beget, is without life, an inferior idea forced on you by a history of war which continues.

Change your hearts and minds to pursue Jesus and become absolutely perfect like He is. Pursuing Him is the reason the USA is a superior nation. Be smart, join the winning side now. Eventually the entire world will convert.

please delete that poison

We sure dodged the bullet on that one.

"no, it isn't him at all. i posit he is a real person, or was, for all i know he's not alive anymore. i think someone or ones make fake videos to release either prior to our elections (04 wasn't it?) or to sink w/'special events'. just like i doubt there was a 'heros meeting'

I never said technology didn't exist to fake a video annie. I said you're nuts for believing a group of people high in the government would risk their lives and reputations just to benefit the military industrial complex. Apparently,self-preservation is the one ulterior motive your warped mind can't conceive of. They would be tried,executed,and go down in history as monstrous archvillains. WHY in the world would a group of sane people risk all that?
Bin Laden never denied the statements he's made. His cohorts never denied his videos and audiotapes were real either. Or do you believe Al Qaida in its entirety is a Hollywood creation?

again..why didn't you criticize the arkin piece?(When Seeing and Hearing Isn't Believing) do you think the leading expert on national security is lying? do you think the washington post publishes things totally fabricated?

a group of people high in the government would risk their lives and reputations just to benefit the military industrial complex.

what a bunch of bull. how is making a fake bin laden video 'risking their lives?' you want me to believe ms katz who just happens to always intercept these videos first?


who makes terror videos? (make sure to read the last update)

An Opcentre is a command facility for strategic communications.

In this always-ready environment researchers can identify target audiences using highly advanced statistical models, strategists can orchestrate campaigns using the most effective scientific methods and media producers have access to innovative production techniques.

These units of expertise combine to create one of the most dynamic and influential ‘weapons' in the world.

An Opcentre puts influence, control and power back into the hands of the government and military, giving them greater power to influence the enemy in time of conflict and enhanced access to their citizens during a crisis. For instance, an Opcentre can be designed to override all national radio and TV broadcasts, allowing the government and military to communicate with the public as the need arises.

The Opcentre is a formidable tool for Homeland Security, Conflict Reduction, International Public Diplomacy and un-mediated Government communications.

What can the OpCentre do?

* Launch a powerful psyop campaign against an engaged enemy
* Engender support within the national community for proposed military action
* Re-engineer foreign perceptions to potentially avert conflict altogether
* Develop national resilience and behavioural compliance for homeland security issues
* Produce powerful public diplomacy campaigns for political, economic, military issues
* Maintain an ‘always ready' public communication command centre for critical incidents
* Develop more effective public information campaigns for social and health issues

prop agenda

the new American approach to social control is so much more sophisticated and pervasive that it really deserves a new name. It isn't just propaganda any more, it's 'prop-agenda '. It's not so much the control of what we think, but the control of what we think about. When our governments want to sell us a course of action, they do it by making sure it's the only thing on the agenda, the only thing everyone's talking about. And they pre-load the ensuing discussion with highly selected images, devious and prejudicial language, dubious linkages, weak or false 'intelligence' and selected 'leaks'.

fyi

Or do you believe Al Qaida in its entirety is a Hollywood creation?

i already stated i didn't think osama was a hollywood creation. why would you assume i believe al queda originated in hollywood?

lest we forget circa june 1/07

The current U.S. emphasis may be on the surge in Iraq, but there are plans to start drawing down U.S. forces by the beginning of 2008, according to senior U.S. officials with knowledge of the planning.

The senior U.S. commanders in Iraq -- Lt. Gen. Ray Odierno and Gen. David Petraeus -- want the surge to continue until at least December and expect to report enough progress in Iraq by September to justify it, officials told ABC News' Martha Raddatz.

But then a drawdown may begin in February 2008, although each of the two generals supports a slightly different plan.

as always, whether we go or stay has nothing to do w/what is happening on the ground. it is all pre planned and we are just being treated to the window dressing.

the 'drawdown' or troops,( which may or may not bring us back to the level of troops prior to the 'surge' which is just a word to hide the term 'escalation' of hostilities..ie.. airbombing..) beginning early 08 will have no relation to democrats or republicans or anything congree does or says. it is designed around our election process and whether this 'drawdown' is significant or not (5000 troops, 15000 troops?) what WILL be significant is the framing of this 'drawdown' and how it is used by the gop and the dems.

petreus knew in june (likely months before that, it was just announced in june) he wanted the escalation to remain until the election process forced him to stop it. the public is more pliable w/6 month timeframes and this is why all the hulaballo over making sure the 'surge' wasn't just framed as, 'well, we're escalating the war'.

it also has nothing to do w/anbar, or violence levels or any of this. it is preplanned and they are sticking to plans.

we are all just being treated to an elaborate media binge to make it appear as tho events in iraq have a relation to our military 'progression', it doesn't.

these things are determined by people who work the revolving door of think tanks/ military/ lockheed and how much income they 'need' to generate this year.

Bruno,

LOL! Again, we are faced with the equating of America with stability...

No, we are faced with the fact that if we leave there will be no one to try to put a brake on the Iraqis from trying to kill each other.

Iraq’s sectarian woes began there.

But is the fight between the Iraqis sectarian only? Or is this also a fight between the 'haves' and the 'have nots'?

Clearly, continued US presence is not good for Iraqi society.

No that is not clear at all. We have seen what happens when we withdraw prematurely from places like Tal Afar or Fallujah.

Your 1 through 6 has been answered by Mark very well at 5:26.

No, you can take it to mean that I disapprove of the US using sectarian differences to turn Iraqi violence away from itself and into the Iraqi community.

You confuse us with Al-Qaida.

Bruno, we are not turning our backs on anyone. We are trying to bring all segments of Iraqi society back into the process of running and rebuilding Iraq.

You confuse us with Al-Qaida.

yeegads
lol. say it isn't so!!!

would that be the AQ who makes those stunning videos released thru the 'islamic websites' , or the one we fund via pakistan and lebanon?

An enterprizing search of Internet tracking records reveals that an identified Al Qaeda "terrorist website" is actually located in Berlin, Maryland and linked to companies in New York, Austin, Texas and a porn site in Sarasota, Flordia. The agent behind Alneda is identified as one "Jon David." What does the Department of Homeland Security know about Mr. Jon David?

i'm just having a little fun w/you. you and your (anything but) 'facts'.