24: "they only have one more year to go and after that the Iraqis will hold new elections and shoo the black-turbaned and the white-turbaned Mullahs and away once and for ever."

Are you finding your optimism again?

VoI says the meeting has been postponed until "the end of January". Probably not a huge issue... did you think they'd accomplish much anyway?

What end of January?

The meeting was scheduled to be held in early February in the first place. What are you talking about!
They’ve postponed it twice in the last three weeks: the first one until the first week of February. And the second one is the one I’m talking about, with no deadline.

Check it again.

If I knew that, and I was in my teens, how could the Bush administration “geniuses” not notice that?

ohhhh.. People spend years of their lives studying this stuff, and then they become "advisors" to advisors to advisors of the president. Have you ever read any of the psychological profiles on these guys


I say it again and again: this Maliki government is nothing but a sectarian tool that is trying, and unfortunately succeeding, in splitting Iraq into ugly extreme Islamic pockets, labeling it “Shiite, Sunni” and into a hideous ethnic regions.

well, something about this works for the designers of this war or else these people wouldn't be 'in charge' so to speak.

speaking of whose in charge..did you hear?

US quietly demands Iraq give defense contractors, US military immunity from prosecution

US officials are dragooning Iraq into accepting immunity for US civilian contractors in new negotiations with the Iraqi government

dragooning? maybe there are some negotiations going on to insure certain people stay in power, or the illusion of power anyway.

i highly recommend following the links to the front page nyt report. something seems very fishy indeed.

The American negotiating position for a formal military-to-military relationship, one that would replace the current United Nations mandate, is laid out in a draft proposal that was described by White House, Pentagon, State Department and military officials on ground rules of anonymity....

the American quest for protections for civilian contractors is expected to be particularly vexing, because in no other country are contractors working with the American military granted protection from local laws. Some American officials want contractors to have full immunity from Iraqi law, while others envision less sweeping protections. These officials said the negotiations with the Iraqis, expected to begin next month, would also determine whether the American authority to conduct combat operations in the future would be unilateral, as it is now, or whether it would require consultation with the Iraqis or even Iraqi approval.

and here is where is sounds partticularioy weird

such long-term commitments in the agreement would turn the accord into a bilateral treaty, one that would require Senate approval. The Bush administration faces the political reality that it cannot count on the two-thirds vote that would be required to approve a treaty with Iraq setting out such a military commitment.

Administration officials are describing their draft proposal in terms of a traditional status-of-forces agreement, an accord that has historically been negotiated by the executive branch and signed by the executive branch without a Senate vote.

they are avoiding a treaty, or descibing exactly what iraqis get out of the deal..Nor, they said, did it offer a security guarantee defining Washington’s specific responsibilities should Iraq come under attack.

Representative Bill Delahunt, Democrat of Massachusetts, said that what the administration was negotiating amounted to a treaty and should be subjected to Congressional oversight and ultimately ratification.

“Where have we ever had an agreement to defend a foreign country from external attack and internal attack that was not a treaty?” he said... “This could very well implicate our military forces in a full-blown civil war in Iraq. If a commitment of this magnitude does not rise to the level of a treaty, then it is difficult to imagine what could.”

Senator Jim Webb , Democrat of Virginia, who raised concerns in a letter to the White House in December, said the negotiations were an unprecedented step toward making an agreement on status of forces without the overarching security guarantees like those provided in the NATO treaty. He added that the Democratic majority would seek to block any agreements with the Iraqis, unless the administration was clear about its ultimate intentions in Iraq.

king cheney doesn't want the senate meddling w/his war, just hand them the money please.

“There’s no exit strategy, because the administration doesn’t have one,” Senator Webb said in a telephone interview on Thursday. “By entering this agreement, they avoid a debate and they validate their unspoken strategy.”

back to my first link..

According to a report by the House Oversight Committee, a single Blackwater guard ends up costing taxpayers $1,222 per day, or $445,000 per year, six times the equivalent of a US soldier.

the contractors make not even a third of that, the rest goes to cheneys private militais buds who hire them. who controls them???

"Sen. Thomas R. Carper (D-DE), the subcommittee's chairman, noted that the Defense Contract Audit Agency has reported that $10 billion of about $57 billion in contracts for services and reconstruction in Iraq "is either questionable or cannot be supported because of a lack of contractor information needed to assess costs," Pincus continued. "He added that more than 80 separate criminal investigations are underway involving contracts of more than $5 billion."

who's war is this anyway? what kind of deals are they making w/the iraqi government that would justify this unprecedented private mercenary force equal in numbers to our soldiers?

very weird, meanwhile, iraqis can't even heat their homes.

annie

24: "What end of January?

[...]

Check it again.

OK. This is what I saw:

Baghdad, 23 January 2008 (Voices of Iraq)

Iraqi government spokesman on Tuesday announced that the visit of Arab League’s representative to Baghdad has been postponed to the end of January.

Is it wrong, or something different?

sorry, i made a mistake. i italic'd bizarro's absurd comment from the last thread and inserted my own ending. it was supposed to look like this..

People spend years of their lives studying this stuff, and then they become "advisors" to advisors to advisors of the president. Have you ever read any of the psychological profiles on these guys.

rhus, Omar, maybe here's the glich...

this new status-of-forces agreement, an accord that has historically been negotiated by the executive branch and signed by the executive branch without a Senate vote.


i have my own throry on the rock and a hard place the iraqi gov could be dealing with. subtle threat. no time tonight, perhaps i will work on a post tomorrow but my plate is very full at present.

something is amiss, very very amiss.

Greetings Omar, I have discussed your blog in my recent post, drop by and see if you have anything to comment.

Best wishes.

Not worth visiting kids blog to see the comments he writes in relation to you, he compared you and your blog to layla Anwar. He thinks Iraqi American /Mojo is more "subtle" than you.

Your apinion is not special Kid.

Are there any rape victims u should be killing? As you said on your blog you will kill your sister if she is reaped?

That stupid mentality is what is wrong with Iraq. Go to hell Kid.

I did go and read what he wrote.
If no one directed him to write that post, then that’s what he believes, and I totally respect other people’s opinions, when they make sense. That, of course, doesn’t mean he is right or wrong.

I just find the idea of comparing my blog, my writings and opinions to something like what that American-Iraqi writes is absurd and strange for many different reasons. But after all, Confused Kid is free to write what he wants. I totally support and advocate for the idea of freedom of speech, for those who have something useful to say.

Best wishes you rabid frothing brother. oops, just kidding.

rabid frothing.....maidens will dance, children will smile, music will play, and the hero would kiss the girl as the sun happily sets between the two ancient rivers???

gee, i must wear different glasses because somehow i missed this part of your blog Omar.

I just find the idea of comparing my blog, my writings and opinions to something like what that American-Iraqi writes is absurd and strange for many different reasons.

wow. absurd exactly. i am not even going to elaborate.

annie

Thank you Omar for your kind reply, my point is quite simple. I don't claim to know anything, I just said my opinion like you so nicely illustrated.
To put it in a single sentence, you only focus on the government, while Mojo only blames al-Qaeda. How absurd is that? Go figure.

Best wishes.
"K"onfused, with a K :)

I only blame Al Qaeda? Strange, since I've posted about the Shia Taliban and I've criticized Maliki's ineffectual govt. I have declared that Iraq needs real leaders. Not enough, I guess. Oh well.

Kid, did you really say that you'd kill your sister if she's raped?

I blame the government because it is the one that’s supposed to do something about al-Qaeda and other Sunni and Shiite militias.
But instead, there is no government, and there is only a gang of corrupt and criminals who are trading the blood of Iraqis for revenge.
One of the reasons why I said it is absurd and strange to compare my blog to that one is because I write about what is happening in Iraq, critique the wrongdoers and point my finger with blame at those who deserve it. But what is mojo doing other than hating Sunnis and hating Sunnis?

Qaeda? I thought mojo’s heroes in the government, starting with Maliki, said “Qaeda has long been done in Iraq and we won the war against terrorism.”

No?

No. But it's not surprising that you lie about me, since you've lied about me before. If I hate all Sunnis, I wouldn't link on my blog to Sunni bloggers ITM and Sunni blogger Konfused Kid. I wouldn't praise Sunni MP Mithal al Alusi. Dream on dude.

Don’t you find it interesting that you only support the extreme religious ideologies on the Shiite side, like Dawa Party and SIIC, which are causing the bloodshed of Iraqis with Sunni insurgency, and on the other hand you only support secular Sunnis?
That doesn’t make you anywhere near a balanced-minded person.

Think about it! Although I doubt you would understand a word of what I said, because it is not in any propagandist statement that you would depend on in “analyzing” the situation in Iraq. PERIOD.

I support extreme religious ideologies on the Shiite side like Dawa and SIIC? How did you come up with that conclusion??

mojo, do you not support DAWA or SIIC?

annie

No I don't. Two of my cousins were recruited by Da'wa in 1979 and were murdered for it in 1980. Is that why you thought I supported Da'wa? I support democracy, but I don't support Da'wa, especially after they've proven that they cannot lead Iraq to peace. I hope to see secular technocrats in charge of Iraq. What made you think I support Da'wa or SIIC?

Mojo,

i don't exactly remember what i said, it was the sort of crude but well-meaning careless exaggeration you would say to embellish your original point, it was about Sabrin al-Janabi, and I was trying to illustrate the importance of women's honor in the typical Iraqi society, I was not talking about rape even, I was talking about a family's opinion of a daughter who freely boasts about premarital sex unfortuantely, this guy or gal alone of all my readers took it like a big deal, now that you mentiont it, my religious identification has sunk so low that i would probably not even care.

What made you think I support Da'wa or SIIC?

my question was never meant to imply i thought you did. the reason i ask you was for clarity. when you said , as a question, I support extreme religious ideologies on the Shiite side like Dawa and SIIC? i wanted to clarify if you were making a distinction between 'extreme' and say.. non extreme dawa and SIIC. it was simply a direct question w/no implication as to what my impression (because i have never formulated one, about what you thought of either of those 2 groups entities)

as an example (tho i am not attempting to make a comparison) if i was to ask someone, do you not support the republican party and they answered 'do i support the extreme ideologies of the republicans?" i might still not have clarity whether the person supports the republican ideals, or the party in general as opposed to perhaps not being in support of the extreme right wing of the party, who happen to be more in control these last few years.

especially after they've proven that they cannot lead Iraq to peace.

you see, i think many people would be more tolerant of whatever their ideology if they were running a successful peaceful prosperous iraq. that is why i am not sure one could fairly be accused of being partisan under these circumstances. i don't think it is the 'shia' aspect of who they are that is the problem, but then i am not iraqi so i can only speak from my impresssion. as a rule, i abhor mixing politics and religion.

annie

"Who's to blame for the violence in Iraq?"

There is plenty to go around, but to make a generalized grouping, start here:

1. Polititions, clerics, and militia leaders who are more interested in lining their pockets with money and power than doing what's good for Iraq!
2. Al Qaeda and other foreign fighters infiltrating your country to fight a global terror war.
3. Foreign governments trying to exert themselves into the equation.
4. Probably the worst--a lot of young men with no jobs and no perceived future!

This one is the governments fault. Start rebuilding and restoring electric power and the other infrastructure so desparately needed by the people instead of lining their pockets and the pockets of their family and friends. This will keep a lot of not-so-satisfied young people out of trouble.

I don't see how anyone can blame the Iraqi citizenry or even the various religious sects for the violence because before this all started, neighbors got along fine and often times didn't even know what religion their neighbors were. It's the religious LEADERS not the populace to blame.

I truely hope that next years elections will make a huge difference for you. The time is now to start finding and recruiting moderate intelligent and patriotic people to run for office.

3. Foreign governments trying to exert themselves into the equation.

trying? i'd say total domination of the airspace is more than a try.

annie

Damaging

Is the postponed or even cancelled visit of an arab league delegation to Baghdad worth a long post? I don't think so. Is it important to most iraqis? Do they expect anything out of it ? Did they even know about it? I doubt that very much.

Omar ,
Untill recently I was a silent observer of iraqi blogs and i think am going back to be a very disappointed and silent observer.
I just would like to tell you something and do hope you think about it. You said in a reply ( the previous post) "
I always blame ourselves, the Iraqis. I always have and will always do until this mess is solved. Because blaming the strangers for what’s happening in Iraq is not going to help." , hasn't it occured to you that your mentality ( which regrettably many iraqis can't seem to get rid of)is one of the main reasons for the tragedy we are living and have been for a very long time? You are so consumed with hate and rage and you let your last name see and think for you . Your country is at war yet you talk past wars and 20 year old corpses , you divided your people into original and non-original , real and unreal .
Forget about Saddam and his wars. Forget about waking up one day to find that those iraqis you hate so much have disappeared , this isn't going to happen , I mean even iraqi politicians and mass murderers have realized (or half realized) this by now , so i don't think it will be that difficult for you to do. Believe me you will feel much better and more comfortable once you do that and rid yourself of all that hate that am sure is poisining yourlife right now. Its not too late to change , my boy. you are very young ( early 20s i think) , so its not late to re-educate yourself. I also recommend asking yourself every once in a while about the concret things you did to help your country and strengthen ties between your countrymen.
I do hope you think about what i said . Thank you.

Just to second what Mayssam said about mentality, if the government members would suddenly all die of a mysterious disease, the people who will replace them will be just like them, the problem is inherent within Iraqis themselves, not by any external factor, certainly, the external forces help to shape things towards their own interests, but Iraqis themselves have the final say and the final blame for not being united.

*cough* *cough* Pardon me, don't mean to interrupt, but since someone brought it up, I took it upon myself to look up certain posts and comments.

Not quite sure where all of this talk of sisters and rape came from, but referring back to the Kid's post of February 21, 2007 there was the Kid's comment here:

1. @anon
Of course I cannot really put myself in her place, but from her overall statement, the timing, the language and several other fishy stuff - i can't really say she was raped. As for killing my sister, I was actually referring to the the girl's low-brow vulgar language, she might be countryside, but nobody talks like this in front of anybody i know, I wouldn't kill my own sister if she was raped and I would gladly marry a raped woman.

24,

I totally support and advocate for the idea of freedom of speech, for those who have something useful to say.

That's good, because the Kid did. We all have a right to our opinions even if we don't always agree with each other. I don't always agree with the Kid, you, Zeyad etc. But we should at least try to listen and not just use each other as a way to make our own points.

I think both Mojo and you bring forth ideas worth considering. And they should be presented and defended reasonably and fairly. There is no gain in trying to one up each other by seeing who can be nastier in the comments section, IMHO.

Satire and sarcasm have their place, but so does simple dialogue. I love hot and spicy salsa, but I wouldn't make a whole meal of it. ;)

You said in a reply ( the previous post) " I always blame ourselves, the Iraqis. I always have and will always do until this mess is solved. Because blaming the strangers for what’s happening in Iraq is not going to help." , hasn't it occured to you that your mentality ( which regrettably many iraqis can't seem to get rid of)is one of the main reasons for the tragedy we are living and have been for a very long time? You are so consumed with hate and rage

i am very confused. will someone please clue me in? massayan, if you are not going to be posting, perhaps kid can answer becasue he has also referenced this 'hate and rage' of Omar's. what part of the passage precluding the claim here signifys hate and rage?

while i don't agree w/it (i very much blame my own country for, at a minimum, some of the carnage in iraq) i don't see how taking responsibilty for the condition iraq is in as hatred.

i must be just missing something. can someone grab some text from the post and copy it for me that demonstrates hatred so i can more fully understand what is so offensive?

Is the postponed or even cancelled visit of an arab league delegation to Baghdad worth a long post?

long? what's long about it? perhaps you don't think the purpose of the delegation is important? maybe a delegation from arab states for the purpose of political reconciliation is important. or maybe you don't think political reconciliation is important.

Is it important to most iraqis?

maybe iraqis don't think political groups working together makes any difference.

Do they expect anything out of it ?

maybe people like Deputy Secretary General Ahmed Ben Hili are completely ineffectual.

I just would like to tell you something and do hope you think about it. your advice to Omar is completely based on these assumptions you have made about him that so far, you have provided absolutely no evidence of. none what so ever. but i will admit, you have argued excellently your case.

where i come from, this is called a strawman. it is creating a position, attributing it to your opponent, and then arguing.

what is also interesting is that you are repeating an accusation here on the thread that you made on the last thread, but have evaded our hosts requests to you in the previous thread. if you make these accusations, by all means back them up w/QUORES. not empty rhetoric like "Every thing you said in your post suggested"

once again, be clear please. i am totally not understanding what the foundations of your argument (cloaked in the guise of 'advice')is based apon.
......

i was reading something from the archives of a very favorite blogger (not a middle eastern expert), circa 4/11/03, and it reminded me of this post. i thought i would share it geography is destiny

annie

whoops!!! it is doubly embarrassing to misspell in capital letters!

once again, to mayssam,

"by all means back them up w/QUOTES. not empty rhetoric like "Every thing you said in your post suggested"

i grabbed that from your last thread which was so full of unfounded unsubstantiated accusations i became almost dizzy!

also, i was just wondering, can we talk about the post and the implications of the cancellations? did it relate to the cairo conference? am i the only one who noticed the president tried to squeak thru this status of force agreement (that directly relates to our future in iraq) w/out authorization from congress at precisely around the same time this conference in iraq was being cancelled??

annie

24,

When the ITM bloggers denounced the Lancet Report, you were reported to have called them "anti-rational dialogue people". Now that the report has been exposed as a fabrication, do you think you have said anything that needs taking back?

The Lancet report has not been proven false.

Now that the report has been exposed as a fabrication,

?? where do you get this logic? from your right wing site.


The World Health Organization said its study, based on interviews with families, indicated with a 95 percent degree of statistical certainty that between 104,000 and 223,000 civilians had died. It based its estimate of 151,000 deaths on that range.

are male iraqis between the age of 14 and 65 aren't considered civilians in a war zone?


The interviewers, who were employees of the Iraqi Ministry of Health, had been trained how to ask the survey questions and to assign the stated causes of deaths.

lol, i am so impressed

The surveyors largely conducted their work in August and September 2006. In Baghdad, Shiite militiamen, often acting in coordination with or with the acquiescence of fellow Shiites in the Iraq security forces, purged many neighborhoods of Sunnis.

how can you interview people who have been purged?

The extraordinarily dangerous security situation prevented surveyors from visiting about 11 percent of the areas that the researchers had intended to visit.

Most of the places that were off-limits to the researchers were in Anbar Province, the Sunni-dominated region of western Iraq.

until you can prove the lancet report was fabricated you claim is just that, a claim.

they should be presented and defended reasonably and fairly. There is no gain in trying to one up each other by seeing who can be nastier in the comments section, IMHO.

well, i am not seeing evidence of 'one upping' or nastiness for that matter. certainly not from the text you copied.

this isn't the first time i have had the impression certain influences are pressing to compare these two bloggers. as i stated earlier i find it weird. it also seems appropriate to discuss it on the thread of the blogger who initiated it, as opposed to here where it is not relevant to the post.

which leads me to wonder the obvious....

*cough* *cough* Pardon me, don't mean to interrupt, but since someone brought it up, I took it upon myself to look up certain posts and comments.

lynn, what did you think of the post Omar has written? have you no comment? or is it just more interesting to you to discuss kid's post on this thread?

what is wrong w/Omar's post that no one wants to discuss it?

doesn't anyone think political reconciliation within iraq is a worthy topic?

here is a link jaafari talks to resistance that is related to the topic, in case anyone besides me is interested instead of driving this entire thread off the competitive deepend. another excellent post i recommend.

annie

Mayssam,
I thought about what you said and I was really really confused.
What are you talking about? Hate and rage? Hate Iraqis?

I hate Iraqis?
Seriously, what are you talking about?

In all my posts, in all my interviews, in all my speeches, in all my contributions to solving the problem in Iraq I have been nothing but a totally Iraqi. I love Iraq, I love its people, I love the Sunnis as much I love the Shiites, I love the Kurds as much I love the Arabs and Yazidis, Assyrians, Shabak and all the others. And I have shown this in every single post on my blog and in every single word I’ve said to a reporter or an audience.

What are you talking about?
If blaming Iraqis, and I am one of them like it or not, for what’s happening in Iraq means to you that I hate Iraqis, then you know nothing about real world. Not until you take responsibility for your actions and your problems that the problems will be solved. And that’s what I am advocating for; the Iraqis, and I am included of course, should take responsibility for their country because no one is going to help us to rid Iraq of the poisons that are creating people like you.

I talk about the dead and wars and the past, you say?
Go back and read my posts. It is I who said that we have to forget about revenge now and take care of our future. It is I who always said and will be saying that no matter what Shiites or Sunnis or Kurds did in the past, let’s forget about it now because non of them is going anywhere and we have to find a way to live together.

If my first name, or last name [if you happen to know it] make you nervous for one reason or another [each signifies a different sect of Islam], then that’s your problem. If you hate me personally because you think I am a Sunni and you are an extreme brain-washed Shiite, which I am sure you are, or because you think I am a Shiite and you are an extreme brain-washed Sunni, then it’s your problem. I have nothing to cure your sick mind.

I will continue to care about Iraq and I will continue to talk about the situation, bad or good, until I get my Iraq back. My Iraq, which once upon a time hosted all Iraqis and opened its arms to foreigners. That’s the Iraq I am fighting for and will be fighting for in every peaceful means I have and will have. If you don’t like it, well.. it’s your problem. And just so you know, I will be one of the decision makers in Iraq one day because I am qualified to do it because my interest is Iraq, not three federal states.

Deal with it.

oh my goodness gracious..hot ogg the press. the infamous max boot

if only the Iraqi government could effectively reach out to Sunnis and Shiites alike who are fed up with violence and sectarian divisions.

Yet the perverse political system stymies such an outcome. In 2004, U.S. and U.N. officials pushed through an electoral process that resulted in votes for parties rather than individual candidates. This left party bosses in Baghdad free to appoint hacks who do not answer to any local constituency and face no penalty for failing to provide essential services. Water, electricity, garbage collection and job creation are in terrible shape, especially in Sunni areas, because the government is run by Shiites.

oh my, i thought the official story was that everything was going swimmingly. i am shocked shocked shocked that mr bootlicker is actually insinuating the 'democratic' political process failed iraqis.


American battalion commanders have stepped in.

to the rescue!!! doing what no iraqi has been allowed to do!!

the government's ineffectiveness, not the insurgency, that is Iraq's biggest problem.

i'm shocked. could Omar and BT have been right all along?

Maliki has antagonized the Kurds, Sunnis and most of the Shiite parties.

AAAAAAHHH. i can't believe i'm hearing this. say it isn't so max! next we have a reaaal mouthful o' theory..

Believing that the White House cannot effectively pressure him without undermining domestic support for its Iraq policy, Maliki has slighted governance while consolidating sectarian control via a vulpine clique. In a flight from reality, his aides balked over sending a letter to the U.N. requesting that coalition forces remain in Iraq, even though Maliki wouldn't last a day without coalition support.

huh? i better look up vulpine...oh my. Machiavellian! i love the 'flight from reality' lingo.

The U.S. should support democracy in Iraq, not Maliki per se.

oh my. i presume this doesn't mean he's abandoning one man one vote. he isn't! it is just a little squewed....

If he doesn't come through, the American president may have no choice but to cast his vote -- probably a decisive one -- against the Iraqi prime minister.

there will still be one man one vote, it just won't be an iraqi vote. at least iraqis won't have to wait till the elections for the next puppet!

annie

sorry, link

Finally, a useful although very sarcastic post from Annie. The link to the LA Times article by Bing West and Max Boot pretty much nails down the truth. Thank you Annie for that one.

"""That’s the Iraq I am fighting for and will be fighting for in every peaceful means I have and will have. If you don’t like it, well.. it’s your problem. And just so you know, I will be one of the decision makers in Iraq one day because I am qualified to do it because my interest is Iraq, not three federal states.
Deal with it."""

Omar, that paragraph is EXACTLY why I love reading your blog! You and enough patriotic people like you can and will make the difference in Iraq's future. I just hope it will be sooner rather than later.

Annie,
It’s the classic “Iraqis don’t know anything. We should hear it from an American” episode. I’ve been saying the exact same things for almost two years now, but no one listens. Hopefully now they’ll notice the mistakes they have made over and over again. Now it’s said by an American! Doesn't matter to me, the important thing is that people in power are getting to hear the real analysis from who they trust.

Hi Omar ignore the noise (mayssam) there are some of us (shia) who agree with you 100% and those that read your writings and think you are sectarian are just ignorants and reactionaries who cant comprehend analyze and stay focused.

And anyone that does know your first and last name also knows it would not be possible for you to be sectarian.

Ignore the noise.

Omar (24 Steps),

Your imminent return to Iraq is MY dream too.

Heh heh heh.

If all goes well, you'll be blogging from Baghdad in just a few months from now.

Iraq needs you, Omar. It's time to go back home.

*

Finally, a useful although very sarcastic post from Annie.

lol. (taking a bow) glad you liked it :) i had fun posting it.

I’ve been saying the exact same things for almost two years now, but no one listens.

oh they listen alright, they just aren't allowed to go off script.

Now it’s said by an American!

and not just any american. max boot is a bonafide hardcore neonut. i don't know the bing character.

here's the glitch. we all know bush can switch emperors in iraq whenever he wants. what i find interesting is the heads up to the msm that it is ok, or somehow works w/the agenda to tell part of the truth.

i was in favor of a changing of the guards years ago, and got blasted for it. it's hard to imagine this comin' round the bend w/out a fair amount of retailiation and bloodshed but it has to happen.

if the US can't figure out how to maneuver a secular leader into power they have no place, no place whatsoever colonizing iraq. get on w/it already! it is sinful what has transpired under their watch. and according to the asia times piece i posted at the end of my 11:44 post, the military has also reluctantly been taking the brunt of cheney's refusals to take their advice.

think i'll belt out a few lines of..

desperado
why don't you come to your senses

Omar. It's time to go back home.

says you? i'll think i will trust Omar's judgement on this call. it is not your place to say this. not at all.

Bilal,
Having people like you is what makes Iraq a promising country. It is also the reason why I am proud to be an Iraqi and why I will spend every day in my life to help Iraq.

No mater how long it takes, your voice and mine will be heard in Iraq and we will get back the old happy days, the ones without bloodshed and sectarian-divided cities.

[24] "But my mind didn’t stop there. It hit me hard when I thought: but these are the same groups that formed the Iraqi Governing Council. And before that, they were all “together in the struggle against Saddam Hussein Regime” and formed one opposition umbrella group in 1991 called The Iraqi National Congress. Technically, the current Iraqi political groups had 18 years to reconcile, and yet they haven’t. What does that tell you?"

VERY VERY GOOD! That's an excellent point.

Don't forget, US troops will be in Iraq for as long as the Iraqi parties don't reconcile. Don't forget, America can play up on side against the other at will, too.

Annie, that was an excellent response to CMAR. I also noticed that on their anti-Iraqi blog you had them on the run with your comments on their supposed debunking of the Burnham report. So much so that Jeffrey wants to ban you for it. The man's a little mouse. Well done!

PS - I notice that your name doesn't appear on your posts anymore. If you have a Google mail address, try typing that password into blogger with the GMail identity. I had the same problem a while back.

Omar: "But my mind didn’t stop there. It hit me hard when I thought: but these are the same groups that formed the Iraqi Governing Council. And before that, they were all “together in the struggle against Saddam Hussein Regime” and formed one opposition umbrella group in 1991 called The Iraqi National Congress. Technically, the current Iraqi political groups had 18 years to reconcile, and yet they haven’t. What does that tell you?"

Tell me, Omar, is this how the Ba3ath reconciles?

"A woman known as Um Haydar was beheaded reportedly without charge or trial at the end of December 2000. She was 25 years' old and married with three children. Her husband was sought by the security authorities reportedly because of his involvement in Islamist armed activities against the state. He managed to flee the country. Men belonging to Feda'iyye Saddamcame to the house in al-Karrada district and found his wife, children and his mother. Um Haydar was taken to the street and two men held her by the arms and a third pulled her head from behind and beheaded her in front of the residents. The beheading was also witnessed by members of the Ba'ath Party in the area. The security men took the body and the head in a plastic bag, and took away the children and the mother-in-law. The body of Um Haydar was later buried in al-Najaf. The fate of the children and the mother-in-law remains unknown."

Damn, I'm not looking forward to any more "reconciliation" by the Ba3ath.

This post has been removed by the author.

""A woman known as Um Haydar was beheaded reportedly without charge or trial at the end of December 2000. She was 25 years' old and married with three children. Her husband was sought by the security authorities reportedly because of his involvement in Islamist armed activities against the state. He managed to flee the country. Men belonging to Feda'iyye Saddamcame to the house in al-Karrada district and found his wife, children and his mother. Um Haydar was taken to the street and two men held her by the arms and a third pulled her head from behind and beheaded her in front of the residents. The beheading was also witnessed by members of the Ba'ath Party in the area. The security men took the body and the head in a plastic bag, and took away the children and the mother-in-law. The body of Um Haydar was later buried in al-Najaf. The fate of the children and the mother-in-law remains unknown."

Damn, I'm not looking forward to any more "reconciliation" by the Ba3ath."

Then you know nothing about Iraq which is obvious for not having lived there for a long time.

See, other than what I see on the news and hear from friends back home, I have no other source, but usually I try not to accept propagandas as you very well do.

The Baath party was the ruling party for about 35 years and part of its program was to recruit as many Iraqis as possible.

As I wrote in my post, if you wanted to be part of the government, you had to be part of the Baath party which I think everybody should admit that if you want o be par of the government now, you have to be part of the certain Shiite(Mostly) or Sunni parties.

If you wanted to be part of the educational system, you had to be a Baathist, if you wanted to be part of the system in general, most of the time you had to be Baathist. There are a lot of intellgant people who were major parts in Iraq's functioning society who were Baathist, you connot exclude them from there jobs just for the fact they were Baathist.

You cannot get rid of my elementary school teacher.

You cannot get rid of my high school professors.

You cannot get rid of Iraq's Middle Class like your "Unity Government" is doing.

You cannot kill the intelligent people of Iraqi Mojo and if this is somehing that people like you are provocing them believe me there will be people who will stand firm against your propaganda and the hatred towards Iraqis.

They are parts of us, no because they are Baathis but because bothe of us have lived on the land of Mesapotemia and have drank the Tigris water, THEY ARE IRAQIS.

Ali, are you saying that the story I quoted from Amnesty International is false? It's propaganda?

I love Iraq, I love its people, 24

One hopes you are serious about this. Because if you do become involved in Iraq's government, really listening to them is of paramount importance.

Don't play the "Are you saying that the story I quoted from Amnesty International is false? It's propaganda?"

Yes, because I remember the time when some women were beheaded in some Baghdad neighborhoods and I think Omar does but I clearly know that Baathist were not the ones who were beheading, it was the Fidaiu Saddam millitia and I bet if you ask a lot of Iraqis who lived in Iraq at the time, they would tell the same.

The Baathists did not have to witness it and if they did, you can go and look for these men and punish them wih what they deserve, you definitely cannot punish more than 5 million Iraqis for some Baath members who witnessed beheadings or in this case we should kill every member of the Iraqi government for they are winessing the killing of a lot of Iraqis and they are not doing anything.
Huh

Ali, I wasn't suggesting that we punish all former Baathists for what those murderers did. My own father was a member of the Ba3ath party. My comment at 6:06 am was to point out that the Ba3thi leadership (Saddam and his hardcore supporters) were not into reconciliation with Da'wa and other Islamists in the year 2000. Omar made it sound like Da'wa had opportunities to reconcile with Saddam's filthy regime between 1991 and 2003. I quoted an Amnesty International report that clearly illustrates that the Ba3thi LEADERSHIP (were the Fedayeen Saddam not Ba3thi?) was not prepared to reconcile with Da'wa, even if Da'wa wanted to reconcile.

And in your comment you made it sound like the story reported by Amnesty International is false and that I want to punish all Ba3thists. Ali, you are jumping to conclusions like Omar often does. Read this post and tell me what you think.

Also read this: "I have agreed with Sistani on just about everything except his fundamentalist religious beliefs. I do not agree with him on this. Former Baathists without blood on their hands should be allowed to work for the Iraqi government."

Ali,

It's clear that Mojo is talking about the Ba'ath as a RULING PARTY, not the millions of average citizens who had to belong to that organization simply to put food on their tables.

Now let's take a look at why Mojo might have some reservations about the return of the Ba'ath as a ruling party.

1. Iran-Iraq war: probably a million Iraqis died and at the end of eight years the borders between the two countires were basically the same.

2. Invasion of Kuwait: probably 80,000 Iraqi soldiers killed as they fled back into Iraq.

3. Putting down the uprising in the south of Iraq in 1991: a few hundred thousand killed as the Iraqi Army struggled to maintain control?

4. Anfal Campaign: attempted genocide on the Kurdish people in Iraq.

5. Police-state killings: Probably at least 300,000 Iraqi citizens murdered in one way or another by the Ba'ath-controlled Iraqi government (they're still finding bodies in mass graves).

These seem to be good reasons for being critical of the Tikriti-centric Ba'ath dictatorship that destroyed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi families.

Look back on the history of Iraq through Saddam's reign. Do you think that was normal?

*

Mojo leave the debating to real Iraqis and go back to your silly blog and play with your American friends.

radston, do "real" Iraqis make false claims about me, say that reports published by Amnesty International are false propaganda, and say that I've claimed to know more about Iraq than they do? Do "real" Iraqis insult Iraqis who were happy to see Saddam's filthy regime overthrown? What makes a "real" Iraqi?

Omar made it sound like Da'wa had opportunities to reconcile with Saddam's filthy regime between 1991 and 2003.

no, he did not. he questioned (and you copied the text so you should know) how these members of the INC couldn't reconcile w/eachother.

mojo, what did your question about the baath party have to do w/Omar's question? is Omar promoting the baath party?

you copied part of his text yet you failed to comment on it. what do you think of the failure thus far of these political groups to bring stability to iraq?

it would be very helpful if perhaps people could find some common ground. as you have stated above you have criticized maliki's ineffectual government. Omar made a point indirectly by asking the question about these leaders who have unified to rid the world of saddam, yet so far have been unable to unify to bring forth an alternative.

it appears you and Omar also share in your agreement the maliki government is ineffectual, so why take an opportunity to talk about alternatives for the future, to presumably challenge Omar about something in the past we all know any sane person would not support?

Technically, the current Iraqi political groups had 18 years to reconcile, and yet they haven’t. What does that tell you?"

it tells me there are likely underlining reasons that are preventing them. maybe i am jumping to conclusions. all in all, i think when members of these groups had something to rally against w/the assistance of the powerful US (like removing saddam) they could find common ground. in this regard possibly it hasn't been 18 years they have disagreed.


Don't forget, US troops will be in Iraq for as long as the Iraqi parties don't reconcile. Don't forget, America can play up on side against the other at will, too.

oh, i have not forgotten this bruno. something a friend wrote...

Well, for a long time I thought Maliki by all political logic would fall in some sort of coup. He was/is by all appearances an intrangient puppet, a sectarian, Iran loving, do nothing, benchmark ignoring sloth. Who also has remained profoundly weak throughout his tenure, allowing large chunks of his government to drift in and out of compliance. And thats when it dawned on me thats how Bush has came to love him in his special sort of way. That Maliki, with all his apparent flaws, weakness', and vulnerabilities is actually performing exactly how Bush expects him to perform. Maliki is Bushes tiny dancer, who obliges master not with power or complicity, but by a feat of remaining frozen in a delicate eleve (do not attempt to visualize this). He is the fulcrum on which the birthday cake of American interests is balanced and it's his job is to
prevent all inclinations that could easily snowball into overt nationalism, civil war, or Hobbesian chaos. And also, to remain as the catch all repository of blame for everything that has failed to manifest or has gone wrong.

He has antagonized all these groups by default, in that to grant any special favor (even his own DAWA party faction controlled by Ibrahim al-Jaafari) runs the risk (because he is so weak) of consuming the interests he represents (himself in particular). This works well for the U.S. in not allowing other more unpredictable anti-occupation parties to gain power and keeping any nationalist alliances from forming. It also applies to Maliki as well, as he too must remain weak, dependent and unable to consolidate state power. Any party or alliance strong enough to manage state power wouldn't be dependent on the puppet master. So the puppet master cannot allow any credible state power to emerge. And blaming that on Maliki is a sick straw man joke, whose purpose I suppose is to blame Maliki for Bush's failure to secure the country for exploitation. Which can't happen until some semblance of state power emerges. Which Bush must prevent from happening. Which would be an amusing catch-22 if it didn't require a 24 hour a day human wood chipper to maintain it, in its precarious and pointless abeyance.

:) i know that will really endear me w/our gov trolls. speaking of which..

I also noticed that on their anti-Iraqi blog you had them on the run with your comments on their supposed debunking of the Burnham report. So much so that Jeffrey wants to ban you for it.

I KNOW!!!!! i swear i got a total kick out of jeffery's (puffing his chest out) sheer manliness. lol, he is sure the king of his little roost isn't he!! lol. it was the first time i had commented there, way too tempting. you know they are in total desperado mode when they drag up 2 yr old arguments to try to prove the war isn't really so destructive. plus, they are using the same wsj crap written by bremmers promotion team leader AS IF he is not some partisan hack who can't talk himself out of pretzels on a scienceblog. whaddeva. i am wearing bannishment as a badge of honor. it is not everyday some psyops hack for the government admits you are 'ruining' one of 'their' propaganda targets!

la di da

annie

Get lost mojo nobody cares what you say except for your American cheerleaders.

challenge Omar about something in the past we all know any sane person would not support?

i was speaking of some alledged beheading. i think Ali, and i recommend the posts he has written on the subect, has demonstrated, along w/Omar in the past, most members of the baath pary were just normal iraqis.

it seems like a distraction to discuss them when the topic of the post is about the current leaders.

annie

Of course it is a waste of time Anne, but the broken record is here and this is topic du jure.

annie: "no, he did not. he questioned (and you copied the text so you should know) how these members of the INC couldn't reconcile w/eachother."

With each other? Damn, I misunderstood. When I read "Technically, the current Iraqi political groups had 18 years to reconcile, and yet they haven’t" I thought he meant reconcile with Saddam's regime. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

"i was speaking of some alledged beheading."

LOL!

"Get lost mojo"

Dream on dude!

@ Anti-Iraqi American 'Mojo',

[Mojo] "[Reconcile w]ith each other? Damn, I misunderstood. When I read 'Technically, the current Iraqi political groups had 18 years to reconcile, and yet they haven’t' I thought he meant reconcile with Saddam's regime. Sorry for the misunderstanding".


Which shows that not only you cannot understand Arabic, but that you cannot understand even your own language, English, since what Omar had written was very, very clear.

It is possible (since you are a notorious imbecile, like your pal 'Anand') that you just did not understand a very simple sentence; but I suspect that this time you FAKED misunderstanding, in order to comically rave on about Saddam just to distract the attention from the contents and the meaning of Omar's post.

And this seems confirmed by the stupid post by your dear fellow rodent, Rat Schuster: funny that a Professor of English and linguistics at a college (yeah, a community college, but better than nothing) did 'misunderstand' (LOL !) such a very simple sentence as well ;).


[Mojo, answering the "Get lost mojo" that somebody had written] "Dream on dude!".

In the light of the preceding, on top of being a sectarian and imbecile rat, dear 'Mojo', it's evident that you completely lack self-respect: otherwise, you'd follow that advice, and you'd make yourself very scarce, instead of blathering on ...

Someone explain how this fool Mojo thinks we care about his opinions? If we cared we would go to his blog and read his stupid thoughts there. But instead he comes hear putting all of his links and begging for the attention. Take an example from all the other Iraqi blog oweners they don’t go to the places where people attack because they will not waste there time with stupid people. But Omar makes it so clear to you all the time that he doesn’t care if you live or die and that your opinion is trash and you still show your facce! Amazing! Tell me do you sleep with a shoe on your face ??? Or does the Indian Anand make you sleep with other things on your face???

boo hoo hoo, cry me a riverbend:( are you guys the "real" Iraqis? Is this how you will "unite" the Iraqis??

LOL!

not to bore anyone.. but speaking of uniting iraqis, maybe we could take a little trip down memory lane and focus on the friggin post!

now that mojo has been duly informed the topic is about the current leaders of iraq (shocking) which do not include any saddamists (shocking i know)... what might it take for them to overcome their differences?? according to that neocon rag channeling max boot

In a flight from reality, his aides balked over sending a letter to the U.N. requesting that coalition forces remain in Iraq

shocking really, don't you think? hmm, food for thought. could it be, in kid's eloguent words IRAN IRAN IRAN or do you think there might be other reasons like say, somebody doesn't like over a hundredthousandsrougemercenaries wandering around randomly knocking off civilians whenever it strikes their fancy. or maybe they don't like the idea of maliki signing some neverendingpermamentbaseagreement
...that really isn't (unless you read between the lines)

la di da

okiedokie, a little off topic.. i think we aren't being told a lot about what is going on behind the scenes. i don't think this recent attention maliki is getting from the neonuts is simply a matter of bush trying to put some finishing touches on his legacy before he leaves office. and i don't think it is isolated to affairs in iraq. things are heating up in the region and many characters are likely wearing many hats. my guess is there are things like bribes past and future, blackmail and other unsavory means of keeping people in place. personally i think this is one of the main reasons for these laws created after the fact to legitimize spying and phone taps. i don't think we use them to primarily 'keep tabs on our enemies' i think they are used to control our' friends'. for anyone interested in wild conspiracy theories you may want to check out the sibel edmonds case now finally making it's way into the msm via the london times because we know the US press treats it like a hot potato. daniel ellsberg (of pentagon papers fame)recently wrote a report claiming it was going to radically surpass whitewater. it is about to go public in a big way, and it ain't about iraq so much as it is about the 'war on terror'. the times article claims

the FBI is deliberately covering up the existence of its case file which implicates US government officials in corruption and the trading of black market nuclear weapons,

those of us following this story were AMAZED at the coincidence mentioned in this latest sibel edmonds interview.

Luke Ryland: Two weeks after the first article in the Times about the involvement of high-level US officials being involved with Turkish and Israeli interests in supplying the nuclear black market, President Bush quietly announced that the US will start supplying nuclear technology to Turkey. Do you think that is a coincidence?

Sibel Edmonds: The timing is certainly very, very suspicious. The proposals that are being floated are very suspicious too. There are reports that Turkey will build an enrichment facility, and that Turkey will become the key supplier of nuclear fuel to other Muslim countries who want nuclear power plants. None of this makes any sense.

And again, the US media is nowhere to be seen on this issue. Where are the journalists? Do you remember the noise made a couple of years ago when the US announced that it would supply India with nuclear technology? So far, nearly a week after the announcement and not a single major US media outlet has even reported on the deal! Think of the hypocrisy, with all the saber-rattling at Iran over enrichment.

If it's such a good idea to sell nuclear technology to Turkey, why isn't the White House out there selling the idea? Where are the arguments in the press saying that this will be good for regional stability, or that it will help reduce demand for oil, or even that it is simply good business because US firms will be able to sell their hardware and knowledge? There's nothing! Silence. What does that tell you?

the reason i am mentioning this is the US officials implicated in this case just happen to happen to be the same ones in the pentagon who were instrumental in creating the fabrication of the saddam WMD. anyone who follows the neonuts knows that anytime anything really important is coming down the pike they are quiet about it. at the same time some big news event happens to difuse the story. what could be bigger than a replacement of maliki at a time like this.

just my little mind turning wheels.

i recommend the bomb in the shadows. this story has been captivating audiences at the most traffic'd liberal blogs during an election cycle. it ain't going away.

Sibel Edmonds: The way they've structured this deal is that Congress has 90 days from the announcement, now 84 days, to block the 'agreement' otherwise it basically becomes law.

why is the administration be fast tracking legalizing supplying nuclear technology to Turkey?

do you think that is smart?

annie

fyi mojo, i used the word alleged because i was too lazy to google this irrelevant (to the topic) person and know not what you speak of.

Someone explain how this fool Mojo thinks we care about his opinions?

anon, he is a glutton for punishment. he likely knows we don't care but he serves his purpose here. preventing dialog towards meaningful or interesting ends especially wrt what Omar focuses on.. it is the cross we all bare. he's (one of) our pet trolls.

notice how as long as we fumble around dealing w/his concerns (saddam, baathists) we don't talk about the topic of our host? it so much reminds me of the occupation or the maliki gov. nothing gets finalized but we can all debate who's fault that is. a massive accomplishment for those who enjoy the fruits of recipes for disasters.

As if annie and the anonymous mu6aya *never* leave off-topic comments! LOL! As if I am *preventing* dialog here! Right.

Interesting how everybody here "deals" with "my" concerns!

annie: "i was speaking of some alledged beheading."

radston: "Get lost mojo nobody cares what you say except for your American cheerleaders."

Ali: "Then you know nothing about Iraq which is obvious for not having lived there for a long time."

anon: "Someone explain how this fool Mojo thinks we care about his opinions?"

anon, respond to anon: "anon, he is a glutton for punishment. he likely knows we don't care but he serves his purpose here."


Too funny. Are you all on the "Uniter" team?? Are you all the "real" Iraqis??

Here's an idea: ignore the fool.

One of the anonymous mu6aya gets smart.

Now you can have that "dialog" that I've been "preventing". LOL!

OK.
After all this back and forth talks, discussing something and someone who the Iraqis do not care about, and will never care about, may I suggest we go back to discuss what the Iraqis are going through and try to spread the word that Iraq is in dire need of our help?

Here are two main topics in my post, in case you forgot:

[Technically, the current Iraqi political groups had 18 years to reconcile, and yet they haven’t. What does that tell you?]

[It has been more than three weeks since we have had any power from the national grid at our house. We don’t consider it that much of a difference because even in "normal'' times we get just one hour of power during the day and another hour at night. We don’t bother anymore to ask about the reasons behind this or when the electricity might be fixed and come back. ]

"discussing something and someone who the Iraqis do not care about"

The Iraqis don't care about me?? LOL! That's so funny. So Omar the "Uniter" gets to decide who the Iraqis care about.

Hey Omar, do the Iraqis care about Konfused Kid? Do the Iraqis care about Raed Jarrar? What about Riverbend? Nibras Kazimi? Omar Fadhil? Zeyad Kassim? Could you create a table and list the names of people that the Iraqis care about in one column, and in the other column list the names of people the Iraqis don't care about? That would be nice for future reference:)

Just finished reading Treasure of Baghdad's post about the difficulties and legal wranglings of his sister to open a bank account in a Shiite neighborhood. Seems that the government has issued a new decree that you need to identify yourself by neighborhood (sectarian) in order to open a bank account. His sister is a Shiite. Now I read your post and feel completely hopeless 24. What can we do, what do you suggest we do to highlight the backwardness of the criminals we put into power?

This is what the Iraqis got from Maliki’s gang, the new dictatorship. Even the Shiites have not received any attention since the invasion in 2003. This government doesn’t care about Shiites or Sunnis. It’s one and only interest is the inheritance Saddam Hussein has left them, that is Iraq’s wealth.

"We are a few of 10,000 poor families in Karbala, some of whom have been displaced from other provinces and others have no home. We settled in land owned by Karbala municipality, which notified us that we should evacuate the land in 15 days," One of the demonstrators, Naeem Abdullah al-Aibi, told Aswat al-Iraq, Voices of Iraq, VOI

I guess Maliki and the rest of scum don't have anything better to do than to evict the homeless:

BAGHDAD, 27 January 2008 (IRIN) - The Iraqi Ministry of Defence has given about 300 internally displaced persons (IDPs) one week to evacuate a former military compound in Babil Province, about 100km south of the capital, Baghdad, officials said on 25 January.

"Representatives of about 45 displaced families last week appealed to the Iraqi parliament for help to persuade the defence ministry to postpone its decision," Abdul-Khaleq Zankana, head of parliament’s displacement committee, told IRIN, adding that the Iraqi army intended to reuse the compound as a military base.

Zankana said his committee had been in discussions with US-led forces, the Iraqi defence ministry and the Iraqi Red Crescent Society (IRCS) in an attempt to reverse the decision.

"Nothing yet has been achieved to solve this problem but we are against displacing these families again and increasing their daily suffering," Zankana said.

12,000 displaced families in Babil

According to Qais al-Zubaidi, the provincial director of IRCS in Babil, the affected families are among 12,000 displaced families scattered in and around the provincial capital, Hilla, who have been driven out of their homes in other provinces by sectarian violence.

The compound in question, al-Hashemite, is about 35km south of Hilla and was a military base during the rule of the late former president Saddam Hussein.

"Like other governmental compounds it was looted after the 2003 invasion and was still abandoned until late 2005 when displaced families started to use it for shelter," al-Zubaidi told IRIN in a telephone interview. "Since then, we helped these families with metal sheets, reeds and wooden blocks to make a makeshift camp for them in addition to giving them food and non-food materials."

Relocation alternatives

Al-Zubaidi added that a provincial committee had been formed to find a solution for these families; either by re-housing them in an abandoned government building or by erecting a new camp for them.

"But most probably we will get a piece of land in the suburbs [of Hilla] from the city's municipality to erect more than 100 tents for them and supply them with food and non-food items," al-Zubaidi said. "It is indeed a problem. It will be difficult for us to erect a camp in four or five days as we are in winter and it is raining nowadays. Because of that we need more time."

When contacted, the Iraqi defence ministry refused to comment on the issue.

Iraq's displacement problem is widely considered to be the biggest challenge facing the government, as it struggles to meet the needs of the more than two million people forced to flee their homes.

According to the IRCS’ latest figures (end of November 2007), there are 2,179,614 displaced persons in Iraq - a decrease of 0.5 percent on its October figure. Some 82 percent of the displaced were women and children and children under 12 made up 58.7 percent of the IDPs.

(BTW I love the featured artist)

Anon,
Thank you very much for this question.

I have thought about this over and over again in the last three years.
We need to appeal to the young generation. The generation that has lived through four wars plus Saddam Hussein’s regime. We need to listen to what my friend wants, my brother, my neighbor and their friends and colleagues.
Because we lived through difficult times, and that is really the only thing we’ve seen in our life so far, we know what Iraq needs. We were deprived of the things that Iraq lacks now, so we recognize them.
Most people of my generation know exactly that religion is not going to help us. We know that hatred is not going to take us anywhere. We know that revenge will only result in more crimes, which will have revenge seekers as a result.
We witnessed and suffered from 13 years of sanctions, during which food was luxury. What did the current politicians know about sanctions?
We know that electricity is important, because we lived without it in the last 15 years. We know it is important to kick off the building of new power stations in every city in Iraq.
We know that the Iraqis had to join the bath party to get salaries and food. We are not traumatized by the ordinary baathists because Sunnis and Shiites had relatives who were baathists and we know they weren’t bad people.
We should get 25-year-olds and 30-year-olds as advisors to a new Prime Minister so we can get the Iraqis what they want. We know what kind of a country Iraq should be now, not how Iraq should have been in the 1960s and 1970s, like what the current politicians are advocating for.
We know that it is over for Dawa party, SIIC and the Iraqi Islamic party and that we need new blood and fresh perspective in the government.

It’s either that, or we will have to wait until my generation is in their 60s and 70s so they can get power. And by that time we will be irrelevant to what Iraqi needs, like the current politicians.

And what can Americans like me do Omar?

The United States is the biggest power in the world. Your administration governs and controls much of the world’s foreign policy. Therefore, you should think twice about your candidate for presidency and vote wisely in the next elections. I think by doing this you are not only helping the Iraqis, but the entire world.
Anyone tells you can do more to help Iraq in terms of politics is dreaming big deal!

I just finished watching the news of the Florida primary tonight. John McCain won. I suspect he has a good chance of winning the presidency in November. He is a real decent human being and with his experience as a five year prisoner of war, I think he will be the best choice for president, especially as far as Iraq is concerned. He was the biggest supporter for adding troops last year. I am confident he will try to do what is best for the US and for Iraq. Unlike some Americans, I don't subscribe to the conspiracy theory of this whole affair. I think America is trying to do the right thing, but I know they sure have screwed it up big time! Things do seem quite a bit better lately though.

Omar, is it safe enough yet for the general public to try talking directly to politicians? Surely some of them can be trusted? If not maybe an anonymous letter writing campaign, using as much tact as possible, pointing out just how disgruntled the people are. Possibly talking to the US military might help? If you think of anything average Americans can do, let us know here--please.

I get so frustrated just reading and hearing about your useless politicians, I can only begin to imagine how hard it must be on you to live with it. And we think ours are bad.

Good luck to you.
Joe

24: "Therefore, you should think twice about your candidate for presidency and vote wisely in the next elections."

Obama gives his thoughts at about 1:30 into this. Basically, he agrees with 24 re: the failed Iraqi gov't, and plans to spread hope & change to Iraq by withdrawing immediately. He wants to take the fight to al-Qaeda.

Omar ,

I wish i could tell you " good luck with your political ambitions" but I can't , am sorry. Don't you think that in order to suceed you will have to adopt a different tone and language ? How can you convince anyone that you care for him(her) when you refer to them as " non-original , unreal , poisonous ......" , unless you are counting on the vampires who are often present here (and whereever there is a strong smell of blood ), to vote for you .
you do know that you have to be IN Iraq to follow your political dreams , don't you?
Read your posts and you will be less confused about I said.

Annie ,

Madame , is it my problem that you are often confused and clueless ?

There was nothing confusing about what i said to Omar . I simply asked him to start with himself and search for the answers he is looking for deep inside him.
As for reconciliation , it is ofcourse very important , but mutuel respect and understanding ,accepting the other, agreement on the basics as well as compassion are much more important than political reconciliation .
Actually , relations between iraqi political groups have largly improved over the past months , still inter-iraqi relations are the same.

"but mutuel respect and understanding ,accepting the other, agreement on the basics as well as compassion are much more important "

I don't think you will get that from annie, Omar, or Ali. Tell the truth about Saddam's atrocities and they go nuts. Mention some facts about Sunni domination and they go crazy. Link to an article that describes the beheading of a Shi3i woman by Fedayeen (Ba3thists!) and they get all defensive.

They have compassion and understanding for each other.

here's a youtube video of mcCain saying it would be 'fine w/him' if we were in iraq for a hundred years

Anyone tells you can do more to help Iraq in terms of politics is dreaming big deal!

yes, i agree w/you. only an iraqi should be making political decisions in their country. US influence in choosing politicians for iraq has thus far failed miserably, and will likely to continue failing for the simple reason that any leader strong and influential enough to rule iraq must be able to do that w/out depending on the outside for support. in a perfect world this leader would be one and the same, supported by iraqis and supported by the US, but ultimately it is the iraqi people who need to back a leader and that leader must have what is good for iraq come first, not be conflicted by satisfying a foreign power.

We should get 25-year-olds and 30-year-olds as advisors to a new Prime Minister so we can get the Iraqis what they want.

absolutely. while politicians are haggling about long term contracts and hefty regional issues people are suffering over the most basic human needs.

when our country was going thru unprecedented hardship we had the new deal. right now it seems the options open in iraq for young people is to choose a side, and which of those sides are offering ways to help build up the country? where are the programs to build iraq back up.

iraqis don't want to be, and shouldn't be relying on a foreign power to organize and sustain these programs. if there was something akin to the new deal. so much loss has created a vacum and that vacum has been filled w/more violence.

the seeds of this violence should be dealt with at the root, instead it seems the roots have been nourished and we are fighting the growth, and we can keep fighting the growth. we can ad more troops as mcCain says, and we can be in iraq for 100 years. but who wants that?

supporting weak politicians beholden to us, empowering fanatical ideologues beholden to iran, inner fighting and competition and bribes and paying off all the little people in all the districts, this feeds the roots of violence. only iraqis can heal their country and granted there will be a period of conflict for a new leader to rise above the rest but i don't see how that can happen if a politicians not as strong are supported by outside forces. this only prevents what inevitably needs to take place for a leader to emerge.

sorry for bringing up 'a person iraqis will never care about'. i just don't like to think decisions are being made in iraq for outside reasons that serve some big picture that has nothing to do w/iraqis. we've had 5 years to show iraqis and the world how good america can be for iraq, and we have failed. it is time to relinquish control see who can emerge amoung the people who can straighten out this mess because the dominance of our command is feeding the insurgency, is feeding the root of the problem.

Tell the truth about Saddam's atrocities and they go nuts.

i'm not going nuts. i am totally bored talking about a dead guy who has no place in the future of iraq. moveon to relevant topics.

sorry, that last anon was me

Well Annie if you are tired of discussing him then simply ignore the person that keeps bringing him up. Unless you are an idiot like him this shouldn't be a problem. Now try to focus on the subject at hand.

iraqis used to live in a socialist society. most all of the advanced developed nations of the world use socialized programs for certain basic needs like health care and education. in times of need even great nations like the US used socialized programs for a host of things like building infrastructure.

there is nothing wrong w/this. right now w/so many iraqis suffering how can they not think about the way things were, even during the sanctions. for many people socialism is a dirty dirty word.

iraq needs some socialized programs to get it back on its feet. there should be political entities organizing some. maybe most iraqis aren't ready for the 'free' market.

annie: "iraqis used to live in a socialist society. most all of the advanced developed nations of the world use socialized programs for certain basic needs like health care and education. in times of need even great nations like the US used socialized programs for a host of things like building infrastructure.

there is nothing wrong w/this."

Oh sure... Saddam invaded his neighbors, repressed his people, and killed hundreds of thousands of them to preserve his rule.... but education was free !!! Hooray for Saddam the Socialist!

Anonymous at 8:36 PM,

Just finished reading Treasure of Baghdad's post about the difficulties and legal wranglings of his sister to open a bank account in a Shiite neighborhood. Seems that the government has issued a new decree that you need to identify yourself by neighborhood (sectarian) in order to open a bank account. His sister is a Shiite. Now I read your post and feel completely hopeless 24. What can we do, what do you suggest we do to highlight the backwardness of the criminals we put into power?

It is standard practice in the United States when opening a bank account to give one's name, address and social security number. This information is, understandably, a requirement. I see nothing sectarian about giving similar information in Iraq.

People, it is your right to criticize your government. But it would do more for your credibility if the criticism was reasonable, researched and well thought out.

Joe,

Of all the candidates out there, I too like John McCain the best. I may not agree with everything he says, but I admired his stance on the torture issue. He stuck to his guns about something he felt very strongly about even in the face of certain opposition. In the same way, he backed the surge. And bottom line, he seems the most moderate candidate.

Education is STILL free in Iraq. Iraq is STILL a socialist state with respect to healthcare and education. Only oil and food are not subsidized like they were before 2003. The vast majority of goods in Iraq are sold in the free market, and that's the way it's always been, that's the way it should be.

Lynette, please read his post before giving your opinion. His sister was DENIED request after request to open an account in her own neighborhood and it was sectarian. I can't discuss with the blind.

But Mojo... don't you see? Education was free under Saddam, so Saddam must've been pretty cool.

Honestly, I don't see how Iraq would NOT end up socialized to a large degree. Thinking Saddam is cool for doing it just ignores everything else he did to Iraq/Iraqis.

RhusLancia, we're not supposed to talk about Saddam here. It prevents dialog between the "real" Iraqis!

the topic, how to get iraq on it's feet has absolutely nothing to do w/who invaded iraqs neighbors! sheesh!

Education is STILL free in Iraq. Iraq is STILL a socialist state with respect to healthcare and education. Only oil and food are not subsidized like they were before 2003. The vast majority of goods in Iraq are sold in the free market, and that's the way it's always been, that's the way it should be.

i agree w/you. that is not my point. i think we were taking about things like getting the electricity going, repairing roads and the government organizing jobs to get people off the street.

i should never be amazed at your abilities to turn each and every conversation into you know who. i was thinking about the new deal and how when our country was in deep sh't up to our eyebrows the government programs helped people, gave them hope. it doesn't have to be a permanent situation, not at all.

i think it is roundly understood the total dismantling of the socialist network (i won't even say its name around here) served to spin iraq into chaos and disarray. if the priority is to get people heat and jobs then setting the tone of a free market at the present time shouldn't outweight whats most important. especially when the ptb had no qualms whatsoever about having foreigners receive the lionshare of contracts after the invasion.

why so quick to attack?

what is more important to you? what is more important to iraqis? to get these basic needs covered during a drastic time of stress, or making sure it is done the privatized free market way?

it doesn't mean there won't be a free market, it just means wrt jumpstarting the work programs and energy programs it might be easier to do what iraqis know as opposed to new reforms.

think of it in terms of a language. if your parents died in an explosion and you were transfered to a new authority, would that be the best time to learn a new language? maybe until the trauma wore off you could speak your old language.

anon, as an american i can open a bank account anywhere in the US, in europe for that matter. how can anyone open a bank account w/out identification?! lyn must know this, for some reason she chose not to understand the information was used to reject someone from opening an account. first the neighborhoods are separated by sect. now it appears the banks are being treated the same way. pretty soon, maybe you will not be able to by milk in a store that only sells to another sect. crazy. is this part of the 'soft partition'?

of course no one has a problem w/a socialized program of imposing laws on these free market banks. when it suits your purpose you love government intervention. just not when it comes to the money part, then it needs to be open to international meddling. how very progressive of you.

well, since you are so gangho about chewing out my idea, what's your brilliant idea for getting electricity and job market jumpstarted? rally round the neighborhood US army base no doubt? go join the police. support the occupation.

rhus? anything to contribute besides connecting every socialist idea to your ravefave boogyman?

This information is, understandably, a requirement. I see nothing sectarian about giving similar information in Iraq.


lyn, jews were required to identify themselves in germany too! what is wrong w/that??????

let's just skip the part where those stars they wore were used to identify who was gonna be shipped off and killed. hey, asking for their id wasn't racist!

seriously, you guys will defend anything if it comes from 'your side'. anything, anything to distract. lyn, have you even once on this thread commented on Omar's post?

what exactly is it about the iraqi governemt you feel is worth defending at present?

spit it out, i am very curious.

Mojo: "RhusLancia, we're not supposed to talk about Saddam here. It prevents dialog between the "real" Iraqis!"

Right. I keep forgetting. Errr, move along, people, nothing to see here.

Anonymous,

First just let me say that my original response was to this phrasing of yours:

Seems that the government has issued a new decree that you need to identify yourself by neighborhood...

This wording seemed to imply that they were looking for some form of address(I know they don't really use them in Iraq) or location for a potential customer. Which in my estimation is perfectly proper.

Now, I have had a chance to go and read BT's post. He is saying that the GOI is not allowing anyone to open a bank account in a neighborhood in which they do not live. This, by itself, does not necessarily have to be because of sectarianism. It might have to do with security in the city.

I know we have had problems in some nieghborhoods in getting banks reopened. And, yes, in my estimation some of that did have to do with a sectarian bias. I got the feeling it was more a fear on the part of the GOI of where the money might end up(ie: the insurgencey), rather than a religious bias, though.

I don't know the reasoning behind this law. But I do know that if I were an Iraqi, I would try to find out.

His sister was DENIED request after request to open an account in her own neighborhood and it was sectarian.

No, my take on his post was that she was not allowed to open an account in other neighborhoods because she didn't live there(ie: because of this law). She was told in her neighborhood that they weren't opening new accounts because they didn't have checkbooks. Was it a lie because they were discriminating against her husband, who is Sunni? Is it a majority Shiite neighborhood? Or was it a shortage of funds issue for that branch? They mentioned the unkempt appearance of another bank they had visited, so there is that possibility.

In Iraq it is difficult to really tell what causes the problems, lack of security, sectarian bias, or lack of funds. Any is a valid possibility. All I am trying to say, is don't assume one or the other.

Annie,

See my reply to Anonymous. And I would be against any law requiring identification of Iraqis (or anyone else for that matter) by religion.

"Education is STILL free in Iraq. Iraq is STILL a socialist state with respect to healthcare and education. Only oil and food are not subsidized like they were before 2003. The vast majority of goods in Iraq are sold in the free market, and that's the way it's always been, that's the way it should be."

http://www.unicef.org/media/media_23630.html

http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2005/03/31/child_hunger_in_iraq_said_about_double/

http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-28727320070730

Ali, I thought you had found some articles that disproved my comment about free education in Iraq. Still the articles are very interesting. An excerpt from one:

'The survey reveals that despite the difficulties, overall enrolment surged in the 2003/2004 school year. But it also shows that the number of suitable school facilities has failed to keep pace with demand.

Some 4.3 million children are currently enrolled in primary schools, up from 3.6 million in 2000, the most recent year for which data were available prior to this survey. However, there are not enough desks, chairs, or classrooms. Many schools have had to double up, with a quarter of all primary schools in Iraq running two or three shifts per day – meaning reduced classroom time for each shift of students.

In fact, while there are more than 14,000 named primary schools in Iraq, there are only 11,368 actual schools buildings available to house them. Some 2,700 of these need major rehabilitation.

“Iraq used to have one of the finest school systems in the Middle East,” said UNICEF Iraq Representative Roger Wright. “Now we have clear evidence of how far the system has deteriorated. Today millions of children in Iraq are attending schools that lack even basic water or sanitation facilities, have crumbling walls, broken windows and leaking roofs. The system is overwhelmed.”

RhusLancia, VERY interesting article. Thank you. Check out the article below. It seems the "real" Iraqis never blame insurgents (the "brave resistance") for the terrible conditions in Iraq. Ali might call this propaganda if the guy interviewed had not blamed the Iraqi govt for failing to protect Dujail:

'Abu Hamid, commander of a nationalist cell based north of Dujail, says if any of the witnesses in the Saddam trial leave the Green Zone to return home, "we will destroy all of Dujail. If the people of Dujail allow these villains to live in the town, they will get the same treatment."

The plight of the town reflects the broader collapse of order in the center of Iraq. Insurgents have destroyed the town's water and electricity facilities. Mayor al-Zubeidy says he needs at least 200 more people from the police or Iraqi National Guard to secure the entrances and exits of Dujail. He says he has been unable to persuade the Iraqi government to send reinforcements to the town. "We haven't gotten any support from any of the governments," he says. "There is almost a siege of Dujail, and we can't move out. If they catch you on the way to Baghdad and they find out you are from Dujail, you will be killed at once." The town has provided Ali with three police bodyguards, but he still feels vulnerable. "I'm hunted," he says. "The government is ignoring Dujail."

annie: "rhus? anything to contribute besides connecting every socialist idea to your ravefave boogyman?"

annie, "Socialism" was not the problem in Iraq, nor is it the problem now. It may very well be part of the solution, both short and long-term. One thing I think the CPA should have done, immediately, is to re-distribute some of the billion$ Saddam stole in immediate relief, jobs, and rebuilding programs to Iraqis. Not doing this may have been the CPA's most egregious error.

That said, maybe YOU should not associate you-know-who with socialism so tightly. I know you are keen to socialism. If you can someday see how poorly Saddam performed for his country, independent of socialized education and health care and whatnot, maybe you can see his reign more honestly. And I maintain that seeing his reign more honestly is important to being able to move beyond it today.

You do not need to defend Saddam out of a desire to defend "socialism", annie.

annie, Ali, and Omar may accept this, because the murders can be blamed on filthy Shia militias:

'Some places became too dangerous for Western and Iraqi employees alike. One of the projects Bechtel couldn't complete was a water treatment plant in Baghdad's Sadr City, a poor, crowded neighborhood dominated by Shiite militias. Bechtel's top project supervisors and the project's subcontractor fled to avoid assassination.

Violent intimidation also stopped another project -- a state-of-the-art children's hospital in which first lady Laura Bush had taken a personal interest.

The project, in Basra, was supposed to cost $50 million. The U.S. Agency for International Development assigned Bechtel the job in August 2004, with a completion date of Dec. 31, 2005. But Bechtel later warned its government supervisors that the hospital would take far more money and time to complete. The project was suspended this summer. Bechtel says the hospital now would cost $98 million. Federal auditors, who blamed USAID for not reporting the project delays and costs to Congress, say the figure is probably higher.

Basra had been quiet immediately after Hussein's fall. Its Shiite population suffered greatly under Hussein and was happy to be rid of him. But the calm was short-lived, as Shiite militias started to exert more and more control over the city.

Bechtel's hospital site security manager was murdered. The site manager received death threats and resigned. Bechtel's senior Iraqi engineer quit after his daughter was kidnapped. Twelve employees of a subcontractor in charge of the hospital's electricity and plumbing were killed in their offices. Eleven workers of another company supplying the project's concrete also died.'

Omar, Ali, annie, anon, I think the Maliki govt sucks balls and I'm looking forward to better leadership. What do you say? Who is more capable to lead Iraq? Besides Omar, I mean.

lol, you are really becoming the king of strawmen rhus, especially your last sentence.

It may very well be part of the solution, both short and long-term.

great, maybe you can elaborate and share some ideas how.

regarding bad performances, maybe you can share with us someone who you feel has out performed the dismal past you feel it is essential we continually review. maybe an example of someone you think has performed more successfully in iraq, could be used an example??

what ideas might you have? do you like the idea of a new deal type situation?

mojo.. He says he has been unable to persuade the Iraqi government to send reinforcements to the town. "We haven't gotten any support from any of the governments,"

why?? your article was from a year ago and still we are hearing the same thing. why isn't the government responding?

it seems like providing these basic necessities would be paramount. also, if the people had more faith the government could provide for them, in turn wouldn't they be more inclined to sign up in this capacity to work for the betterment of iraq. why aren't the ministries functioning??

why is it that w/insurgents there's support from the occupation for getting rid of them, but a corrupt government gets foreign support?? doesn't this seem bizarre?

Mojo, It is very clear that what I am here for is a lot different from what you are here for. While I am here to teach and learn about my country and how I grow serving it, you come here to act like a 10 year old and look for "disapprovements" and keep calling people who disagree with you names like "Mu6aya" or trying to judge who is and is not a true Iraqi.

This is a platform (Omar correct me if I am wrong) where people come to have civilized discussions about today's Iraq and you seem to lack the skills to have discussions of the like.

Everybody knows what has happened to the Iraqi educational system after the invasion.

-Killing of professors
-Closing the co-educational schools
closing a lot of females schools
-The gender segregation in universities
-Not printing enough books
-Leaking of national test questions.

And it was clear that what I mean by talking about the education is not about its expenses, but about the way it works.
http://www.iraqistudentproject.org/


*Sorry for going off-subject but I needed to make my point clear.

Who is more capable to lead Iraq?

good question mojo!!!

someone secular!

not being an iraqi, it isn't really my place to say, but i think it might be logical to choose someone who

A. secular

B. has experience w/law

c. doesn't have a history of aligning w/religious parties

how is that for a start?

annie: "lol, you are really becoming the king of strawmen rhus, especially your last sentence."

Kiss my ring, annie! But I don't see the strawman there, sorry.

annie: "great, maybe you can elaborate and share some ideas how."

Not my ideas, but the local, bottoms-up reconcilliation & rebuilding we are seeing now have had some success and has much promise for spreading to other areas & growing into a national solution.

annie: "regarding bad performances, maybe you can share with us someone who you feel has out performed the dismal past you feel it is essential we continually review."

Any of the post-Saddam PMs have been infinitely better than Iron-Mustache himself. No, I don't think it's fair to compare them apples to apples (ie "Saddam had x number of students enrolled, Jaafari had y"). Post-Saddam Iraq has been wracked by terrorism, annie, much of it by or in alliance with the very same people that did so badly for Iraq pre-2003.

annie: "do you like the idea of a new deal type situation?"

That's kind of what I think the CPA should have done in '03, and what the new gov't needs to do now, yes. Also, I think you could draw parallels to what the MNF is doing and what is happening at the proivncial levels in getting locals back to work. Not just the CLCs (but inclucding them), but also micro loans and grants, small contracts for picking up garbage and so on. Things like that.

Ali,
And it was clear that what I mean by talking about the education is not about its expenses, but about the way it works.

it seems like all iraqs current government problems stem from religion. from my birdseye view anyway. i like separation of church and state. while it is very true that you can make something equal for everyone, you can also make everyone equally suffer, and it takes the thrill away.

why didn't they make a requirement of political parties being secular when they were slinging around requirements after the invasion?

it's a bit after the fact but it does seem it would have eliminated a lot of problems.

instead everything was designed around separation of sect.

Ali: 'While I am here to teach and learn about my country and how I grow serving it, you come here to act like a 10 year old and look for "disapprovements" and keep calling people who disagree with you names like "Mu6aya" or trying to judge who is and is not a true Iraqi.'

Actually I called the anonymous mu6aya "mu6aya" after they called me names. Should I call them 7abibi? And it was Omar who said that Iraqis don't care about me. It was you who told me that I know nothing about Iraq. YOU, Ali, and Omar are the ones who are judging who is a "real" Iraqi, and I'm making fun of you for it. Unbelievable that you didn't get that. Or maybe it should be entirely believable, given how blind you seem to be.

You say this is a forum for people to have civilized discussion. Is calling me a "fool" civilized? How am I supposed to respond to that? Saying that Iraqis don't care about me is civilized? Is Omar being civilized when he asks "But what is mojo doing other than hating Sunnis and hating Sunnis?" This is civilized? This is how the "real" Iraqis unite the Iraqis?? Denying the crimes of Saddam's regime and calling Amnesty International as "aledged propoganda" is civilized discussion?

Look at the discussion between annie and RhusLancia - they are actually discussing the future of Iraq and the problems Iraqis must overcome. They are talking about what they believe is best for Iraq. That's why I asked you and Omar whom you believe is capable to lead Iraq. And you respond by disparaging me further? Is this how the real Iraqis act??

bottoms-up reconcilliation & rebuilding

i thought we were discussing the government. please by all means direct me to the government reconciliations.


Any of the post-Saddam PMs have been infinitely better than Iron-Mustache himself.

please name one and give us a demonstration of his success in some areas.

I think you could draw parallels to what the MNF is doing

in the iraqi government? please elaborate.

Not just the CLCs (but inclucding them), but also micro loans and grants

are the CLC's part of the iraqi government? the thing we need rhus is to connect these groups w/the iraqi government. it doesn't work if the government is ineffectual and all the localized power you are mentioning is tied primarily w/the occupation. kinda defeats the purpose. as long as there is a break between the government and the people, it won't work. it creates a dependency on the occupation for more of the basics, not just security. it basically makes the society at all levels depend on the occupation. what's the use of this set up?

I don't see the strawman there,

go back to your 1:12 post. you mentioned something about associating tightly, which is a strawman because i have thus far not associated it at all. you also made some point about 'desiring to defend', neither of these you can back up w/quotes because i have done neither.

it is pretty clear you keep bring this up so it must be very important to you. it is in the past. however i can understand how iraqis look back to remembering days of heat in winter w/longing. me, i don't have any such fond memories nor do i have any attachment to the past in iraq, contrary to your claims.

it is disingenuous to make claims about improvements provided by the occupation in place of promised reconciliations as a result of the surge. absent political reconciliations it only makes iraqis more and more dependent on the US. you must know this. THERE HAS TO BE A SOLUTION THAT INCLUDES THE GOVERNMENT.

what is the point of working around an ineffectual government, going behind their backs and performing *(quite inadeguetly i might ad)
duties the government should be providing? it makes no sense. we are propping up maliki. we are propping up a failed government. why?

as much as you would like to tie my questions to some personal longing for the past, i keep telling you i am interested in the future.

reuters video " Analyst: Surge may be hampering Iraq reconciliation".

please don't use examples of the US playing the role of mediator in loo of offering examples of successful iraqi government interactions.

the point of the last year was never about making iraqis more dependent on the US. or was it.

now, i look forward to you providing some names of iraqi government officials who you admire, who thus far you feel have made a difference, and how.

you don't have to compare him to anyone, not for me anyway.

And it was Omar who said that Iraqis don't care about me.

no he didn't. he was making reference to the sibel edmonds link i had just posted. gee mojo EVERYTHING isn't about you.

Spare us the melodrama Mojito. Nobody cares how you react because nobody cares about you, that's why you should scamper to your blog like the rat you are instead of wasting our time with your online histrionics, little girl.

annie: "i thought we were discussing the government. please by all means direct me to the government reconciliations."

The gov't exists on three levels, possible more: local, provincial, national. Much emphasis has been on the nat'l gov't and its failings. However, the local and provincial gov'ts have been improving. On the national level, too, they have recently passed changes to the de-Ba'athification law as you know, and adopted an interim flag that is less offensive to Kurds. They still have much to do, obviously.

annie: "please name one and give us a demonstration of his success in some areas."

in order:
Allawi- weathered an increasing terrorist/insurgent campaign against Iraq and simultaneous uprising by al-Sadr without razing villages, using collective punishment, shelling the Imam Ali shrine, or using poison gas against civilians

Jaafari- weathered an increasing terrorist/insurgent campaign against Iraq and oversaw three successful elections, with increasing Iraqi participation in each. NOT PERFECT ELECTIONS! But the first real elections in Iraq's modern history. Don't have a conniption, annie, you must know the elections were better than Saddam's, flaws and all.

Maliki- weathered a continued terrorist/insurgent campaign against Iraq and simultaneous explosion of sectarian violence after the Golden Mosque bombing. Oversaw expansion and increased competance of Iraqi Security Forces. AQI is being crushed on his watch.

Go ahead and laugh, annie, but as long as the Former Regime Elements and their terrorist allies of convenience are setiing about their scorched-earth plan for Iraq, the PMs and central gov have to address them before infrastructure and services can be improved.

Yes, you can criticize them for hunkering down in the Green Zone behind MNF cover instead of being slaughtered in the streets by market-bombing heroes. But as long as Iraq's enemies have a goal to bring them down BY ANY MEANS THEY CAN WHATSOEVER, yet they stand, they are accomplishing something. Sad but true.

oops, I wrote that comment at 3:06 pm kinda quickly. I meant to write "Denying the 'alleged' crimes of Saddam's regime and calling Amnesty International "propaganda" is civilized discussion? "

Ali, is the anonymous comment at 3:40 pm an example of "civilized" discussion? Is that a "real" Iraqi? How do you suppose I should react to him?

annie: "he was making reference to the sibel edmonds link i had just posted."

Really? I'd like to hear that from Omar, if you don't mind.

Me: "I don't see the strawman there,"

annie: "go back to your 1:12 post. you mentioned something about associating tightly, which is a strawman because i have thus far not associated it at all. "

At a minimum, you misunderstand then. It appears you think "socialism" is under attack in Iraq, instead of Saddam's criminal regime. Even just now, you appear to want to defend Saddam's "socialism" by comparing it to the gov'ts that succeeded him. It appears you do this by ignoring or minimizing his crimes and the crimes of his regime, while failing to understand the influence of his past on Iraq's present.

It appears you think "socialism" is under attack in Iraq,

??? no i don't. where do you come up w/this stuff? me mentioning that many people consider socialism a dirty word is not the same as thinking socialism is under attack. as i said to mojo

i agree w/you. that is not my point. i think we were taking about things like getting the electricity going, repairing roads and the government organizing jobs to get people off the street.

i am trying to come up w/ideas to get this stuff working and i thought of the new deal. it has nothing to do w/thinking socialism was under attack.

i like capitalism. i don't like being restricted in my choices of what i can and cannot buy. but i don't think that is relevant to the present in iraq.

i'm not sure how to contribute to the conversation of merging government function w/bringing services to the people in iraq during wartime any other way. the only model i am familiar w/is the new deal. whatever has been happening thus far doesn't seem to be working.

i think your obsession w/making everything i say wrong (although you did agree earlier you thought it was a good idea for now) or connected to him is screwing w/your perceptions of my words.

there should be political entities organizing some. maybe most iraqis aren't ready for the 'free' market.

obviously iraqi needs politicians right now to focus on these issues we keep hearing about. the only way to do this is to do it! Omar mentioned getting advice from young people. if there were political parties , secular ones that had platforms of immediate goals and programs that is a start. once again, i don't think socialism is under attack. schools may be under attack, hospitals may be starving, but largely i think there is a lack of focus and organizing on the part of a central government to deal w/these issues.

maybe instead of attacking my ideas you could build apon them. i understand the US interacts w/the iraqi government, and also w/the people, but so far i am not seeing the iraqi people and the government merging w/common goals.

is that by design? who knows.

The gov't exists on three levels, possible more: local, provincial, national.

right, and each one is dependent on the US as intermediaries between the population and the people. whats up w/that?

Much emphasis has been on the nat'l gov't and its failings.

right, that is the topic of the post. do you have issues w/considering solutions?

However, the local and provincial gov'ts have been improving.

wrt services? i think that is formost in people minds.

Any of the post-Saddam PMs have been infinitely better than Iron-Mustache himself.

please name one and give us a demonstration of his success in some areas.

you appear to want...... by comparing it to the gov'ts that succeeded him.


(lol, it is you initiating comparing. so much for what 'appears to you')

besides, i was referring to the issues Omar and ali are talking about.

no electricity, no water, no trash collectors and so on. The situation now is much much worse because it’s 18 months later and there are no annual renovations for the streets or the infrastructure, and the insurgency and militias are still free.


now we all know the people you mentioned, tho they made accomplishes have not performed better in any of the topics of the post. i am not talking about what these people weathered. i am talking about what organized efforts they made to bring these services to iraqis. i don't think elections are really a priority right now. or flags. nor can you make the claim maliki is 'crushing' AQ. that is wishful thinking. to crush is like extinguish.

you know as well as i do that claiming i am having a conniption isn't going to get you anywhere. its a tough challenge and you dug yourself a little hole wrt comparing anyone to your favorite topic because frankly i think it is abundantly obvious since the invasion no one has filled those shoes. so lets make a deal, lets NOT make a comparison. why don't you tell me which iraqi politicians have made an impact in bringing services to iraqis and how.

which ministries are running smoothly. where's the success. maybe these services can bring iraqis together? that is what was accomplished in the new deal.


Go ahead and laugh, annie, but as long as the Former Regime Elements and their terrorist allies of convenience are setiing about their scorched-earth plan for Iraq, the PMs and central gov have to address them before infrastructure and services can be improved.

i'm not laughing rhus. far from it. but this is a lousy excuse. you can't keep blaming everything on AQ and your ravfav's. and you know what? you are flat our wrong.

can you even imagine if every single one of our federal government departments wasn't functioning because we were fighting a war? the show must go on rhus. there has to be people inside the government dealing w/these issues and if there isn't something is very very wrong.

besides, it makes no sense. how is it the US can be all over the neighborhood playing honest broker being the go to for everything and every which way but iraqis can't?

who ever heard of invading a country and saying 'sorry guys, until we handle your resistance you can't eat.', but hey, we're yer bud's ...promise.

let's not go there. why is an ineffectual government in place?

seriously, i can't believe you mention the friggin flag rhus.


Yes, you can criticize them for hunkering down in the Green Zone behind MNF cover instead of being slaughtered in the streets by market-bombing heroes.

well, what exactly are they doing in there? maybe they could come up w/a plan while they are hunkering down behind their desk. like a marshal plan. any politician that can't walk on the street of his own country should quit.

I'd like to hear that from Omar, if you don't mind.

i could care less but omar can't humor your every whim.

you appear to want

your unsupported allegations tell me about you rhus.

Omar doesn't have to humor me, but it would be nice if he confirms what you said. Until then, you're fulla crap, par usual.

"It appears you do this by ignoring or minimizing his crimes and the crimes of his regime, while failing to understand the influence of his past on Iraq's present."

It's what pisses me off about American "liberals" these days. I never ever thought a liberal would defend Saddam's regime. Some of what they say is true - the violence we've seen in Iraq is overall worse than what was there before 2003. What they don't realize (intentionally or not) is that Saddam's hardcore supporters (with their Wahhabi allies) mass murdered Iraqis in order to show the world and Iraqis in particular that Saddam was better for Iraq. The Saddamists' strategy worked among liberals and many Iraqis. But I think that American liberals like annie do it also because it makes Bush look bad. They can minimize Saddam's crimes all they want. It doesn't change the fact that Saddam and his filthy regime murdered hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis and most Iraqis are still very happy that he's gone forever, no matter how many Iraqi kids the "resistance" murders.

Yeah, Mojo. It's not like it's any secret- the point of an insurgency is to make the gov't fail, or appear to fail, so that the insurgents can come forward as an "alternative". It's weird how badly the American liberals like annie want them to succeed in this out of hatred for Bush as you say. You'd think there'd be some tipping point where they'd see the FRE/jihadi actions and say "enough is enough, those guys do not deserve to win". But they've just convinced themselves that Saddam's regime put away their torture hats and wear halos now instead. Or something.

annie, I said "appears" so many times because that is how you come across. Why else do you want me to "prove" the current gov't is more effective in providing services than the old one? How else does that come across? Annie, do you think life for the "average" German was better in 1936 under you-know-who, or in 1946 after? So let's all ignore what that regime did and imagine things were hunky dory under that regime, too.

So as long as the former regime and its terrorist allies are trying to make Iraqis' lives a living hell, to a willfully deluded international audience no less, progress and normalcy are going to be much harder to establish.

someone ought to shove a shoe or two down Mayssam and Iraqi mojo's mouths and a couple on their heads too.

free shoe,

Lol Are you sure you don't mean a bomb or a carbomb?

Dahr Jamail interviewed on Democracy Now! with Raed Jarrar

Why else do you want me to "prove" the current gov't is more effective in providing services than the old one?

;)

please name one and give us a demonstration of his success in some areas.

as i made clear in my last post, the comparison is all yours. you made an allegation. i just gave you a platform to brag. i guess to you 'weathering' is what you are boasting about.

i am not understanding what the resistance to acknowledging the drastic conditions and suggesting ideas iraqi leaders could do to make improvements.

normalcy are going to be much harder to establish.

as raed mentios in the video the US is now supporting 3 different secretarian sects in iraq who are ethnically cleansing the regions. this is the 'soft' partition.

we have a policy of military solutions. period.

the point of an insurgency is to make the gov't fail, or appear to fail

you mean they are winning? because it appears the government is a failure. i don't think the blame for that is completely the fault of the insurgency tho. you can't make a sweet cake w/salt.

Until then, you're fulla crap, par usual.

yeah, the more i think about it the more i think he was not referring to my link, he was probably talking about the dead guy most iraqis could give a crap about. i could care a crap to. the only people who like to hump dead ghosts are the necrophiliacs around here.

annie

mr so lets make a deal, lets NOT make a comparison. why don't you tell me which iraqi politicians have made an impact in bringing services to iraqis and how.

lameduckrhus Why else do you want me to "prove" the current gov't is more effective in providing services than the old one?

i guess you don't want to make that deal. so far, your claims of progress in these areas are falling flat. lol.

that's what lame duck agrue'rs do best. fall flat. lol

touche, i'm done w/you. bore.

Dahr Jamail and Raed Jarrar on Democracy Now? How fitting. I find it ironic that Democracy Now would pay so much attention to people who don't like the idea of democracy in Iraq.

Hey isn't Dahr Jamail the same guy who said there wasn't sectarian violence in Iraq before 2003?

ذاك الطاس وذاك الحمام

عبالك داقرة التعليقات مال ذاك اليوم من كبت العيطة وية هذا اللي يسمي نفسة عراقي ههههههههه

والله عندك خلك يا عمر. تنفع تصير رئيس وزراء

I don't think of myself as important. I have an opinion and I'm expressing it, apparently much to the chagrin of many Iraqis here. Thank you, Omar, for allowing me to express my opinions. Maybe you really will be a Minister one day.

hm, perhaps this is why they don't get rid of the current leaders..

An Iraqi MP preferred to remain anonymous told the newspaper that highly confidential negotiations took place by representatives from American oil companies, offering $5 million to each MP who votes in favor of the Oil and Gas law.

The amount that could be paid to pass the votes do not exceed $150 million dollars in the case of $5 million to each MP, pointing out that the Oil law requires 138 votes to pass, which the Americans want to guarantee in many ways, including vote-buying, intimidation and threats!

Focusing on the heads of parliamentary blocs and influential figures in the parliament to ensure the votes, the Americans guaranteed the Kurdish votes in advance but they are seeking enough votes to pass and approve the law as soon as possible.

rumor? or fact. frankly i would be astonished to find out no bribes had been offered. i'm sure they want this little issue cleared up before cheney leaves office.

150 million for oil worth trillions

maybe this is why they don't have time to focus on things like electricity. i wonder what kind of alternative they are looking at if they DON'T agree.

life's tough for a puppet

Omar American Mojo is thanking you hahaha!

What a fool!

Did you see that when Konfused wrote the post about you and him @ the very beginning American Mojo thanked him 2!

After 2 days he became upset it took the fool 2 days to realize the post was an insult.

Also dearest fool [American Mojo- i feel kind today rat] nobody here cares if you have an opinion or if you express it or not but all that the REAL IRAQIS want is that you keep off the blogs where no one wants you for example like this one. When the host of a blog only responds to insult you or when they ignore you like you lil insect then take the big hint they give you and go away. Or like our gracious host will say: shoo fly!

Do you always go where you are not wanted?

How long does it take 4 u to understand that nobody wants you fool?

[I am sitting tapping my hands while I listen to the wonderful music and I'am waiting for Anand the disgusting hundoo to come tell us that Mojo is a nice guy that we must respect]

You have few American friends stick with them and with the other 2 Iraqi fools on your blog: gilgemesh and Nibras (both are 2 stupid just like you).

Omar thank you for freedom of speech, maybe one day inshalla soon you will be PM.

LOL

Tah Haduk Abu Muhannad

Sorry Omar I know this fool only wants the attention even when it is bad attention only because he hopes that one more person will visit his stupid cut and paste blog with the comments that say "oh how interesting i did not know that" or because he is a lonley man: example that he lives on blogs, eats in front of blogs, takes his computer to the washroom, wakes up and first thing checks his comments. No matter what the day or time you can always find this reptile on array of blogs making stupid ignorant rat comments. Laughing and makeing jokes with the Americans that laugh when Arabs die. And when he is not in front off his computer he is sitting in a corner of his house thinkkking like the kkk thinkgs about the blacks but he is thinking of sunnis.

I guess Anand and Jeffrey broke up with him before Valentines Day.

Anonymous @9:20 am, are you one of those REAL Iraqis?? God help Iraq.

Shut up and go tell Anand to bring me a blue slurpee A.S.A.P.

the Iraqi "government" has decided to end the food-ration program in June of this year, over the objections of the Finance Ministry which says this is a bad idea. The reporter says the government decision was taken pursuant to an agreement with the World Bank. Experts are quoted with unsurprising comments to the effect this is going to hurt the unemployed, in a country where the official unemployment rate is 40%.

azzaman

The government said it was also determined to end fuel subsidies, but it declined to say when.

The government took the decision without parliamentary approval.


Analysts say millions of Iraqis will be affected particularly families with no income earners....

women and children. god help them.

i guess they are into the 'pull yourself up by your bootstraps' mentality.

their timing is a little off, no?

Omar:

I'd like to thank you for having this blog and giving everyone the chance to discuss---whatever they want I guess. Your patience seems to be much stronger than mine. Please know that there are a LOT of Americans who only wish the best for you and your country. We may argue about the best way to get things turned around but most of us really do have good hearts! I hope that you will be part of the political process soon. You seem to be an honest man. Don't let politics rob you of your honesty or humanity!!

"The amount that could be paid to pass the votes do not exceed $150 million dollars in the case of $5 million to each MP, pointing out that the Oil law requires 138 votes to pass, which the Americans want to guarantee in many ways, including vote-buying, intimidation and threats!"

Annie:
At $5 million, the $150 million would buy 30 votes! At least whoever published this LIE could have done a little math first!!!

I know you are a lot more liberal than I am and you like to believe the conspiracy theories, but I'm surprised you didn't catch on to this one.

I don't mean to imply that there isn't any corruption amongst the politicians over there (or here either for that matter) because I am sure there is. In fact, that is probably the main reason that so little is getting done for the people of Iraq, they're to busy lining their pockets!

joe, i do not have certainty it is a lie. presumably some people are already on board, and some won't get on board.

the amount of money that could be paid for passage of the Oil and Gas Law [thus] doesn't exceed $150 million

i agree the math sounds off.

The deputy said he thinks the Americans will adhieve their aim with some deputies who will promise to vote for the bill in exchange for the mentioned amount of money, but he said others will not be selling their votes for any price, or under any type of pressure.

source

annie

wrt shooing them away. here's what i think. the ptb have a very specific main goal wrt iraq. my opinion is that a totally failed ineffective government who they know, is likely to be more pliable to deliver that goal than an unknown unfamiliar new government.

there is a strong likelihood the occupying power could manage iraq much better than this lame duck ineffective failed government, but the goal cannot be acquired without the illusion that iraq is a sovereign state. in this regard a government must be in place to pass this important legislation, and i think everyone knows exactly what i am referring to.

an agreement of permanent presence of american bases and occupation... an agreement of oil legislation that includes its own independent security void of american or iraqi legal oversite, in otherwords free and unfettered access to control iraqs resources w/no legal recourse.

neither of these 2 goals can be achieved w/out permission from a legal iraqi body of government.

if the people suffer so be it. they are not the primary concern of the invader and never have been.

this is about private industry. private industry that america can deliver to the elite powers controlling the global financial markets. our military, whether they like it or not, is in place (along w/the mercenaries) to deliver these resources to the ptb.

this is why the occupiers will not shoo away this government and they will do everything in their power to insure the next government, and the one after that conforms to the wishes of the masters of finance and war.

150 million is nothing compared to the windfall of iraqs resources and the power that comes w/controlling them. it would not surprise me in the least if they offered 5 times that amount. obviously they are willing to kill for it.

annie

naturally the US msm has virtually nothing to say about this

Bush Issues Signing Statement On Defense Act, Waiving Ban On Permanent Bases In Iraq

Even though he forced Congress to change its original bill, Bush’s signature yesterday came with a little-noticed signing statement, claiming that provisions in the law “could inhibit the President’s ability to carry out his constitutional obligations.” CQ reports on the provisions Bush plans to disregard:

One such provision sets up a commission to probe contracting fraud in Iraq and Afghanistan. Another expands protections for whistleblowers who work for government contractors. A third requires that U.S. intelligence agencies promptly respond to congressional requests for documents. And a fourth bars funding for permanent bases in Iraq and for any action that exercises U.S. control over Iraq’s oil money.

now, isn't that special.

In his “Memorandum of Justification” for the waiver, Bush cited his Nov. 26 “Declaration of Principles for a Long-Term Relationship of Cooperation and Friendship” between Iraq and the United States. This agreement has been aggressively opposed by both Republicans and Democrats in Congress as not only unprecedented, but also potentially unconstitutional because it was enacted without the agreement of the legislation branch.

thank you king cheney. kudos to addington no doubt.

annie

It was then that I met a pair of young boys, 9 and 10, who curiously peered over the fence beyond the wall, into Egypt. In hushed whispers, and innocent giggles they pondered what life was like outside of Gaza and then asked me: Have you ever seen an Egyptian? What do they look like? They had never left Rafah in their lives.

Walls imposed on us by others are sad, but those we impose upon ourselves are sadder yet.

Also dearest fool [American Mojo- i feel kind today rat] nobody here cares if you have an opinion or if you express it or not but all that the REAL IRAQIS want is that you keep off the blogs where no one wants you for example like this one. When the host of a blog only responds to insult you or when they ignore you like you lil insect then take the big hint they give you and go away. Anonymous

Anonymous, sad to say, for you and any blogger who behaves like that, the walls and ignorance are self inflicted.

Walls imposed on us by others are sad, but those we impose upon ourselves are sadder yet

lynn, if you really think anyone buys the hogwash that israels zionist walls are actually palestinian children imposing walls on themselves you are truly delusional. by your standards the gas chambers were jews imposing on themselves . the US invasion of iraq was iraqis fault. the victim creates his own murder.

if you have a point to make and want to defend mojo, keep gazans out of it. your stretch is phenomenally ridiculous.



those cut cables? iran has no connectivity at all.

if I were a betting person i'd give a lot of thought to how a large country with a powerful navy could temporarily interrupt a communications channel in order to force the traffic to flow in a particular direction.

annie

Iran has no internet service----
You make this sound like a bad thing?? I'll bet it cut way down on Al Quaeda communications.

I admit however it sucks for average innocent Iranians.

You make this sound like a bad thing??

how so? hey , did you ever hear about Blind Man's Bluff: The Untold Story of American Submarine Espionage ?


The most interesting chapter reveals how an American sub secretly tapped Soviet communications cables beneath the waves.

In an unusually successful amalgam, veteran journalists Sontag and Christopher Drew combine a gripping story with admirable research to relate previously unknown information. Throughout the Cold War, the U.S. depended heavily on submarines for intelligence gathering, whether tracking Soviet missile subs, monitoring Soviet harbors and missile tests or, in some cases, retrieving lost Soviet equipment. The U.S.S.R. responded with everything from comprehensive espionage operations to depth charge attacks on particularly intrusive snoopers. The broad outlines of this clandestine confrontation are relatively familiar, but the details have largely remained secret. Although the authors have based their book largely on interviews with submariners, intelligence operatives and politicians, they recognize the possibility of distortion and back up personal accounts with an elaborate and convincing system of verification. While necessarily incomplete, the resulting work depicts what was arguably the most successful long-term, large-scale intelligence operation in American history.

a

this all reminds me of something i said upthread.

anyone who follows the neonuts knows that anytime anything really important is coming down the pike they are quiet about it. at the same time some big news event happens to defuse the story.

i wonder whats going on behind the scene??? or do you think a few cables got cut by an anchor?

lol

Hey Omar & Ali & all, now's your chance to vote for Iraq's next PM....

now's your chance to vote

you remind me of a camp counselor i had at brownie camp. making up little games to for your popularity contests.

nuthin' to say about the cut cables? ii noitce the talking heads on the main stations are completely ignoring the story. speaking of them, at least we have comedians to cover the main issues surrounding our permanent bases in iraq.watch the video.

annie

annie: "nuthin' to say about the cut cables?"

You really need my input on that? OK, here goes: maybe that means somethin', maybe that means nothin'.

Happy?

"i wonder whats going on behind the scene??? or do you think a few cables got cut by an anchor?"

Yep, the "neonuts" are morons AND savvy enough to cut off internet service to Iran AT THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT. Why wouldn't they just KEEP it turned off all the time, since, according to you, they are pushing for war in Iran...?

The conspiracies are just endless, aren't they?

By the way, that was a brilliant move by YOUR patriotic resistance, strapping suicide bombs to a couple of mentally retarded women...to kill as many "collaborators" as possible. You should be proud.

Annie,

lynn, if you really think anyone buys the hogwash that israels zionist walls are actually palestinian children imposing walls on themselves you are truly delusional.

*sigh* Why am I not surprised that I must explain the meaning of my comment to you?

The first quote was an example of walls imposed by others, that is, the Israeli siege and the normal restrictions on the Egyptian border. Which, as you can see from the quote, leads to a lack of knowledge of the world and other people.

The second quote, by Anonymous, is an example of walls imposed by us on ourselves. By refusing to interact with others because we are afraid, or in some way reluctant, to examine their views too closely, also leads to a lack of knowledge of the world and other people.

Indeed, I have learned a lot from those I disagree with. Including you, Annie. That's not to say I agree with you, but you, and others like you, have certainly broadened my view of the world. The behavior that Anonymous describes is immature, and in the long run, only hurts the one who does it.

Al Hayat

Arms deal done by the Iraqi Ministry of Defense with the United States to purchase arms for the Iraqi military, the Iraqi purchase committee received 35 years-old re-painted, expired and unfit for use rifles.

The source said that the Iraqi committee refused to receive the arms but somehow the deal is done.

The Integrity Commission didn’t reveal the values and names of people involved in this deal.

However, over the past months the Ministry of Defense issued a new military criminal law procedures directing all the cases to the military courts, which means that the ministry can withhold information and documents required by the department of the integrity.

maybe MoD is getting advice from david addington now.

thank you for your explanation lyn.


The second quote, by Anonymous, is an example of walls imposed by us on ourselves.

some of your friends here must be in very tight quarters, a prison w/very thick walls. i have heard much worse than this anon speel directed at me.

you have still not commented on Omar's post. what do you think of it? any ideas regarding the iraqi government? certainly you have more concern for the conditions of civilians in iraq than your concern over anon's inner walls. no?

annie

maybe that means somethin', maybe that means nothin'.

well, we are sort of in agreement. my view would be more along the line of maybe there was mischief, and maybe there wasn't. but either way, it doesn't at all mean nuthin'. when a country ie dubai can't conduct business. i would say a severe lack of internet is enough to seriously tangle w/the economy of any country, not to mention several.

the "neonuts" are morons AND savvy enough to cut off internet service to Iran AT THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT. Why wouldn't they just KEEP it turned off all the time, since, according to you, they are pushing for war in Iran...?

i don't think the zionist neocons are morons. only a fool would take that road.

btw, it isn't necessarily about turning it off (besides iran has satellites they can use) as i pointed out in my 'betting man' and 'blind man's bluff" comments. it could be about diverting the channels for purposes of interception.

but then you might not appreciate (w/your lack of nuance) what those implications are. also, it could be used for blackmail. just a little 'see what we can do' affair. either way, it's a fairly stunning phenomena. my how times have changed since the cold war. the internet has become so important. to imagine some entities could shut down business in so many locals. it's a new day and i am certainly not the only one who has considered cyberthreat(a a backhoe!). it's amazing israel wasn't effected, no?

annie

You don't really get the point, do you? Anything you perceive as negative occuring in the ME is, of course, attributed, by you, to some malicious plan conjured up by zionist neocons. Of course, "anything" is possible. Nevertheless, why the immediate assumption that something is amiss when your only proof is other assummptions that other things were amiss. It's an extremely destructive exercise you relish in, and its causing much suffering in Iraq.

Anarchism will not fix Iraq.

my view would be more along the line of maybe there was mischief, and maybe there wasn't.

Anything you perceive as negative occuring in the ME is, of course, attributed, by you, to some malicious plan

lol, i think you have a reading comprehension problem.

earth to kryp(dick). sometimes in the real world countries do things they don't advertise. there ARE such things as TOP SECRET, and ESPIONAGE OPERATIONS. this is just reality. people write books about them after the fact.

if they didn't occur we would have no use for special operatives. in other words, they exist. whether this was one, is worthy of speculation. the backhoe link demonstrates cyberthreat is definitely something our own homeland security considers. the other link demonstrates we have already conducted operations of this nature for national 'security', "arguably the most successful long-term, large-scale intelligence operation in American history.".

maybe you just don't think the 'war on terror" warrants the same sort of espionage as the cold war.

i ask my friend (who's mother is an fbi agent) at dinner last night, "do you think a lot of people are considering this as some hanky panky". ... he referred me to the blind man's bluff book... he answered 'definitely'.

you perceive as negative

why don't you enlighten me how a continent w/out the internet is benign.

why the immediate assumption that something is amiss when your only proof is other assummptions that other things were amiss.

lol. of course something is amiss!
jeez louise! do you think the disruption is normal? and what's this 'proof' about assumptions? what are you talking about for heavens sake?

here is what is the most glaring thing( BESIDES THE WEIRDNESS OF THREE CABLES IN 3 DAYS ie "A submarine cable in the Middle East has been snapped, adding to global net problems caused by breaks in two lines under the Mediterranean on Wednesday.")...it is a big huge story, ignored by katie couric and the other talking heads. why? now THAT is a red flag.

It's an extremely destructive exercise you relish in, and its causing much suffering in Iraq.

??? excuse me? are you implying my speculations are unique in anyway. do you think no one in the ME ever considered this and my little idea gets picked up here and starts some rumor millions of people haven't considered already resulting in suffering in iraq? PLLLEASE...

do you show this concern re suffering w/ airbombing campaigns?

what about starving orphans? do you think me speculation will prevent the electricity going on in baghdad?

Anarchism will not fix Iraq.

do tell. you mean my observations amount to anarchism? only in orwell land. i am only voicing what millions of others consider... maybe a billion for all i know.

3 times the charm.

annie

You have, again, misconstrued my comments. Let me try to break them down for you since you appear to lack the competence to understand basic logic. Not that this is something new, logic has always been something difficult for you to grasp.

If your "observations" are just observations, then, well, no shit sherlock. Pointing out the obvious is not difficult, but the fact that you assign some kind of significance to a certain random event, like the internet going down, suggests that you presuppose something malicious.

Of course espionage occurs. Its necessary to defend this country from enemies foreign and domestic.

Your observations don't amount to anarchism, your suggesting that Iraqis should "revolt" does...

" excuse me? are you implying my speculations are unique in anyway."

Of course not -- there are plenty of gullibles out there who believe everything they hear. You are definitely not alone. Take solace in that, at least.

" do you think no one in the ME ever considered this and my little idea gets picked up here and starts some rumor millions of people haven't considered already resulting in suffering in iraq?"

The ME society is notably consumed with conspiracy. Rather than actually finding the direct and proper source of problems, people are quick and eager to blame Israel or the US or whoever the popular "Satan" is for that day. It's simply lame, and leaves places like Iraq in a state of denial as to what the actual cause of their problems are.

"do you show this concern re suffering w/ airbombing campaigns?"

Of course. Generally, airbombing campaigns are the result of much planning and expert decision making as to what is the best way to properly defend the "good" people of Iraq from the Al Qaeda's and so forth. The war to defend Iraq from your cohorts is, of course, bloody and awful, but that doesn't mean we should just give up.

"what about starving orphans? do you think me speculation will prevent the electricity going on in baghdad?"

Indirectly - of course. You represent a general cynicism about Iraq and its ability to develop and grow. You prefer not to find ways to solve problems, but to attack anyone who doesn't agree with your rigid view of the US - nevermind that your attacks result in, well, additional problems that must be fixed.

Ahhh...the cycle of war continues, and Annie doesn't even realize the damage she causes.

basic logic?

lol

the fact that you assign some kind of significance to a certain random event... suggests

don't you mean 3 identical alleged random events over the course of 3 consecutive days? it was not one event.

since you are quick to claim something as fact, provide the copy/paste.

speculation is just that, speculation. one fact we all know, is that we have been lied to repeatedly. when people are lied to speculation is a reasonable response, for a smart person anyway. if flies in the face of logic to trust liars.

annie

"one fact we all know, is that we have been lied to repeatedly."

Well, I haven't been lied to -- I'm not sure who is "we." You and the other ignorants who thought the world was one way because you were too drug induced to understand the realities of politics?

"when people are lied to speculation is a reasonable response, for a smart person anyway."

A reasonable response to what? To the internet going down? Do you believe in aliens and ghosts too? You seem to have a lot of time on your hands to repeatedly assume things, without knowing the whole story, the way you. I imagine you've been lied to in you life more than others. Most likely, this has led you to perceive the world very cynically. Iraqis deserve much better than your cynicism.

"if flies in the face of logic to trust liars."

Which liars are you concerned with trusting?

the ones who create genocidal ethnic cleansing wars based on totally bogus trumped up allegations requiring horrendous lies to extract trillions of dollars from the federal budget threatening the economic security of the populace which pales in comparison to the death and destruction to the great country of iraq and the iraqi people.

"the ones who create genocidal ethnic cleansing wars based on totally bogus trumped up allegations requiring horrendous lies to extract trillions of dollars from the federal budget threatening the economic security of the populace which pales in comparison to the death and destruction to the great country of iraq and the iraqi people."

So you're referring to moveon.org? or al qaeda?

perhaps Saddam Hussein?

or Ahmadinejad?

really, you sound like you are just describing yourself...

Annie,

you have still not commented on Omar's post. what do you think of it? any ideas regarding the iraqi government? certainly you have more concern for the conditions of civilians in iraq than your concern over anon's inner walls. no?

Oh, but really I have commented, Annie. Omar's post is about reconciliation among Iraqis and how it has not occurred in, what, 3 yrs, 18 yrs?

He talks about the Arab League holding talks. But what good is that if everyone is talking past each other? If no one is really trying to understand the other guy's position? What good is that if they have already built walls around their thoughts and decided that only they have the right idea?

I haven't been posting these comments to insult or belittle Omar. I have come here because he has expressed a desire to become part of Iraq's government. I am trying to tell him that this is part of what is wrong with the current reconciliation efforts. If he really wants to make a difference he might want to listen. Because right now, from what I am seeing, the Kid is right. It will make no difference who is serving in Iraq's government. Until the mentality of 'might makes right and so I don't have to listen to anyone else' is still the status quo, there will be no true reconciliation. There will only be a continuing fight for power.

Oh, and I will admit to wanting to defend Mojo a little as well. I felt he was being treated rather unfairly here. And despite the snide little comments that he is not a true Iraqi, he could be of help to those who really want to bring about change for the better in Iraq.

Oops...

That "Until the mentality..." should be "While the mentality..."

I changed that sentence, but forgot to change that word.

He talks about the Arab League holding talks. But what good is that if everyone is talking past each other? If no one is really trying to understand the other guy's position? What good is that if they have already built walls around their thoughts and decided that only they have the right idea?

i'm not clear as to how everyone would talk past eachother or understand the other guys position if they don't hold the meeting?

presumably the reason the arab league is there is to resolve some of these issues, no?

Kid is right. It will make no difference who is serving in Iraq's government.

this sounds very defeatist. it sounds as tho someone has placed walls around their thinking. i'm unclear how you can solve problems when you accept kid's point of view on this.

krypt states You prefer not to find ways to solve problems when a number of times on this thread i have suggested ideas (like our new deal), no one seemed to comment on them except to accuse me of hugging up to you know who.

besides, if it is true you think this particular government has built these walls around themselves and eachother, which very well might be true, why are we supporting them? there is a VAST difference between calling out this government for being ineffective (at best) sectarian creeps than claiming It will make no difference who is serving in Iraq's government! talk about a wall!

since it won't make any difference who's serving and it won't make any difference whether they meet w/the arab league, then why hold the meeting at all? that's insane. that is a completely closed door.

and this is you being open , suggesting something. hmm. very circular this thinking. one has to have more to say than 'since you have a wall around you it won't work'.

i think something will work. i think there are iraqis who can lead iraq. i think in order for them to be influencial we must stop supporting the maliki government.

do you think we should support the maliki government?

annie

krypt So you're referring to ....

ubly man

annie

yikes, make that 'ugly man'

airbombing campaigns are the result of much planning and expert decision making as to what is the best way to properly defend the "good" people of Iraq

hmm

American forces said Sunday they had accidentally killed nine Iraqi civilians and wounded three in a strike aimed at militants of Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia south of Baghdad, acknowledging what appeared to be one of the deadliest cases of mistaken identity in recent weeks.

American aircraft, responding to an attack on an American convoy, had erroneously bombed Iraqi civilian guardsmen who have contracted with the American military to fight Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia.

Those guardsmen, predominantly Sunnis, are considered a major reason the American military has successfully reduced insurgent violence in Iraq.

annie: "i think in order for them to be influencial we must stop supporting the maliki government."

How would that look? How would it play out? Do we make it known that we don't support them, and open the door for a coup, or no confidence vote, or what? I'm not putting words in your mouth here. Let me know how this would work in your mind.

annie: "i have suggested ideas (like our new deal), no one seemed to comment on them except to accuse me of hugging up to you know who."

I mostly agree with the new deal idea. I have seen you hug up to you know who in the past, more than I think anyone should. This is my opinion.

But, most of Iraq's problems are on the street, not at the parliamentary level. The re-Ba'athification law probably will amount to jack. Why? The good Ba'athists don't trust it. The problem is not, right now, the legality of them coming back to work, but the safety of doing so. That's why I'm genuinely hopeful about these grass-roots efforts for Iraqis to take control. The mostly-Sunni revolt against AQ and ceasing of the insurgency remove a lot of the fuel from the Shia militias' fire. It does not eliminate them anymore than ending prohibition ended the American mobs, but it helps.

Friendly fire killed more Americans in the first gulf war than Saddam's army. Of course, precautions are taken, but in a war zone, anything can happen. Perhaps if your insurgency wasn't trying to destroy iraq, friendly fire incidents wouldn't happen either.

I have seen you hug up to you know who in the past, more than I think anyone should. This is my opinion.

and you will say this over and over again regardless if it is relevant to the topic or the conversation. it is a way of completely diverting the topic.

most of Iraq's problems are on the street, not at the parliamentary level.

no sheet shurlock. that's what happens when you have a lame duck government. iraq wouldn't have problems on the street it they had someone competent running the show. by not having a decent government who are those people on the street dependent on? just the way a colony is supposed to work, they are dependent on the foreign power. you fail to take any responsibility for the failure of iraq under our thumb.

don't answer my question w/another. do you support the maliki government? we've already heard from lynn, she doesn't think it makes any difference who runs the government. and to a degree she's right. as long as we have a puppet government who is beholden to foreign power, it won't make any difference because they won't have enough support from iraqis.

do you support the government?

annie

Annie,

i'm not clear as to how everyone would talk past eachother or understand the other guys position if they don't hold the meeting?

My point there was, why hold a meeting if you are not really ready to listen and compromise?

that is a completely closed door.

Yes, it is. Hence the problem. You can hold all sorts of meetings, but until you really want to move forward you won't.

this sounds very defeatist.

Yes, you're right, and I don't really mean to be. If I thought there was no hope I wouldn't bother leaving comments.

i'm unclear how you can solve problems when you accept kid's point of view on this.

I didn't say he would always be right. There are people still trying to chip away at those walls. And, perhaps, even now, the Kid is simply not looking in the right places. :)

it sounds as tho someone has placed walls around their thinking.

lol! I don't mean to imply that people couldn't participate in their government. I just meant to say they may not all be ready to.

Iraq faces some hard issues. None of them will be settled to everyone's satisfaction. They never are in a democracy. But if they can learn to give a little, rather than take, they may find that the continual quest for power is not necessary. They will be able to trust that there are people who will take into account their wants and desires. Looking at an issue from another's point of view is one way to make it easier to compromise.

Look at the flag issue for example. So many people have blogged about it, they must feel very strongly about it. But they have also blogged about Iraq staying together as one united country. I ask, is that unity important enough to compromise on a flag? Is that unity important enough to try to put someone else's feelings before their own? Are they willing to sacrifice for it?

It can be very difficult to break down those walls and look at situations from different angles. That's why I am so pleased when I find someone who can.

do you think we should support the maliki government?

Annie, I have to tell you that I visited a left leaning blog awhile ago. In the comments section someone seemed to be implying that the people who were there never did anything to back up their opposition to the Bush administration. One of the commenters there shot back with a rather shocked response of "what do you expect, an insurrection against the US government"? Now I can't imagine anything, recently, that has been more divisive to our country than the Iraq war. Yet that commenter seemed completely shocked that someone would suggest they resort to violence to get their own way. It's been awhile that I've seen a comment that I could respect so much in that kind of forum. We have learned that we may not always get exactly what we want, but we know that there is a system in place that will give us a chance to make changes without using violence.

The Maliki government was elected by the Iraqis, it is up to them to find a way to make changes that will improve it. Like Rhus, I am pleased to see some grass roots political movements taking hold in Iraq. I think they are where we were in 1776, that is, just starting.

i think there are iraqis who can lead iraq.

Actually, I do to. They just may not be the same ones.

Btw, have you voted over at Jeffrey's yet? I found myself in a bit of a quandary there, because there was more than one I liked for PM. Fortunately, you can vote once a day.

P.S.

Being mindful of the Kid's fatwa, and knowing I am not well liked in certain circles, I am not going to tell you who I voted for. I wouldn't want them to lose their heads. ;)

do you think we should support the maliki government?

somehow in that long paragraph (that even included an alledged implication about lefties not doing anything in their opposition to bush) i missed your answer. are you evading answering it lyn?


The Maliki government was elected by the Iraqis, it is up to them to find a way to make changes that will improve it.

oh really. even if that means going up against the US who supports it, you know the government could not exist w/out that support. and this blathering about being elected by the people?? as if the people ever had a choice to vote for maliki?

please lynn.

I don't mean to imply that people couldn't participate in their government. I just meant to say they may not all be ready to.

ah. i see. how illuminating.



He talks about the Arab League holding talks. But what good is that if everyone is talking past each other?

in other words, assume the arab league can't make a difference because the government we support and helped place in power won't listen or negotiate w/eachother therefore why hold the meeting?

brilliant. of course that doesn't stop the US from intervening in issues like say... the benchmarks ei oil and gas law...

What good is that if they have already built walls around their thoughts and decided that only they have the right idea?

you might ask that of yourself lynn. 'they're not ready' sounds like a wall to me.

i think there are iraqis who can lead iraq.

Actually, I do to...
Kid is right. It will make no difference who is serving in Iraq's government.

so which is it??


My point there was, why hold a meeting if you are not really ready to listen and compromise?

once again..yes, i get your point. what i can't figure out is if you support this government. it seems if this is your position it is nothing more than a holding patterned..designed to what? i'd say shit or get off the pot. why support a government that won't listen or compromise, or else encourage them to hold the meeting and move thru their differences. this 'they aren't ready' lingo is bogus. meanwhile there is plenty of pressure to pass important legislation, i suppose you support that. i am not hearing the US say 'oh, you aren't ready to sign away control of all your resources!!'

as i stated earlier the goals of the US are to get that legislation passed. obviously any agreements made w/an illegitimate government are illegal. the US is supporting this government for its own selfish reasons. it wants what only a legit gov can deliver, and any sane iraqi gov would not pass this ridiculous legislation, therefore we can't very well be supportive of a government by the people, because the people want what the US wants, control of their own resources.

if iraqis chose to not pass the private industry version of iraqs oil law, would you be supportive of that?

funny how they aren't ready to meet w/the arab league but they are ready to pass those benchmarks?

I think they are where we were in 1776, that is, just starting.

hmm

The American Revolutionary War (1775–1783), also known as the American War of Independence,[1] was, at least initially, a civil war between the Kingdom of Great Britain and thirteen British colonies on the North American continent (as well as some naval conflict). The war was the culmination of the political American Revolution, whereby the colonists overthrew Royalist rule.

i think there are iraqis who can lead iraq.

Actually, I do to. They just may not be the same ones.

right, if this is comparable to our revolutionary war, you would be on the side of the Royalist rule, not the rebels.

annie

Annie,

I'm out of time today. I'll have to answer you tomorrow.

annie: "do you support the maliki government?"

Yes. Clear enough?

It's the best they have right now. Maybe they could get another thru a "no confidence" vote, or remember my dream of Maliki stepping aside and holding early elections. But that's the gov't they have right now, and I hope they'll have a better one after the '09 elections. By then maybe a better security situation will allow progress on these other issues.

It's the best they have right now.

it's also the worst they have right now. seriously, what kind of logic is this. it is what they have right now. AND IT IS A FAILURE.

Maybe they could get another thru a "no confidence" vote

oh please. obviously your options are totally bogus. do you think the neocons considered these things when they wanted to overthrow the past regime.

la di da, 'its the best they have right now, maybe they can elect someone else later... blablablabla'.

maybe a better security situation will allow progress on these other issues.

OR MAYBE IT WON'T!!!!!!! hey i have another idea, lets have another surge, maybe increase the air campaigns like say 5 TIMES MORE BOMBING because maybe it will allow time for the parties to reconcile. and if they don't we can still claim success!!!

oh and while we're at it, lets claim only 1/10th of the dead people are really dead. hey, they don't count.. they aren't CIVILIANS!

hey, i have an idea, let's bribe our enemies to be our friends, slap a new acronym on them and send them out on patrol..

delay delay delay..holding pattern...airbombing...disease..starvation...orphans...it's the best they have..it's the best they have... maybe they can vote at the next.......

hey, and while we're at it mr maliki can you please add your signature to the line about our permanent presence here in your country...since the best you have is ...US!....and even tho you guys can't get along, no prob..just take a few more gazillion and sign that oil deal....or else we'll blow the friggin crap out of your country..on the other hand watch how swimmingly things will go once you just.. do as we say.. terrorist...insurgent..bombs away.



It's the best they have right now.

no, it isn't , it is the best YOU have right now. it's the best CHENEY has right now, it's the best the OIL COMPANIES have right now, and it's the best IRAN has right now.. nothing about this government is BEST for iraqis.

and if it is, tell us. tell us what is 'BEST' ABOUT IT.

annie

Annie,

First, let me try and clear up what you think are my inconsistancies.

i think there are iraqis who can lead iraq.

Actually, I do to...
Kid is right. It will make no difference who is serving in Iraq's government.

so which is it??

Both.

I think there are any number of qualified Iraqis that can fill the job of PM. Just looking at Jeffrey's list of bloggers you find well educated, intelligent people. In addition, there are, I think, those who are willing to at least look at other people's points of view. There are also those who have seemed to genuinely express compassion for others. A quality that would be an asset, in my opinion, given the horrors that Iraq and Iraqis have gone through under Saddam, and during the war.

But a PM does not govern alone. Even the most talented of person will have problems if he or she is thrown into a situation like Iraq, where you have so many old scores to be settled and grudges that people refuse to let go of. As I said, if people are not willing to break down those walls, it will be near impossible for anyone to govern without slipping back into a dictatorship.

Second, regarding my reference to our revolution and 1776. My point there was that at that time in our history we had not really had the experience in running our own government alone. There was always someone, in our case the Kind of England, who had the final say on anything. It took us awhile to become comfortable working together and running things ourselves. It will take Iraqis awhile as well. And they will also have to overcome some very painful events in their past. We did not have quite that much baggage.

Third, when I said I believed some Iraqis may not be ready to participate in their government, I meant maturity wise. You have to be ready to take a lot of flack when you are involved in running a democracy. Just ask President Bush. I don't know if some people have the ability to roll with the punches yet.

Fourth, I really have no desire, or time, to discuss the nuts and bolts of internal Iraqi issues, like the oil law. The only thing that interests me on that issue is that whatever they decide it be a fair decision to all Iraqis.

And last, but not least, regarding the anecdote I related about the conversation on the left wing blog, that was not a dig. It was actually meant as a compliment to the person who stood up for our political system even though he/she may have disagreed with the current administration. If you had looked over your walls, Annie, you might have seen that.

Okay, I think I addressed all your points, but if I didn't you can let me know. :)

while you are hosting little 'entertainment' fantasy popularity threads as if we were all kindergarders suggesting 15 year old girls could be the new leader of iraq and our military is escalating air bombings that jeffery or krypt or whichever of your apologists i can't recall, are assuring us are planned w/precision we are carrying out the EXACT plan leaked before the election. first baghdad, then mosel..and still, leaders who are ineffective and paralyzed. you know damn well this needs a diplomatic solution and what are you doing, cheering escalation which is coated in the propaganda name of 'surge' which really means

WAGE WAR. face it, you don't want iraq to have a strong government because if it did the first thing it would do is eject your private mercenaries! demand reparations! treat you like the CRIMINALS YOU ARE.

Yes. Clear enough?

well, after 175 comments, so good of you to spit it out. and this is EXACTLY why iraq hads the lameduck government it has. becasue you and your criminal ilk support it. nothing like having the superpower's support, even it that support is composed of just enough rope to hang yourself, and the population along with it.

this the best the great america can do for iraq. disgusting.

a

Hmmm...

"Kind of England" should be "King of England".

lol!

There are also those who have seemed to genuinely express compassion for others. A quality that would be an asset, in my opinion,

you're kidding? really. iraqis? that is shocking. what an amazing find. i mean after all, in our government we always rely on people who have compassion for others don't we?
sometimes lynn, your analysis is just really startling.



I think there are any number of qualified Iraqis that can fill the job of PM. Just looking at Jeffrey's list of bloggers

hope! maybe if they are really good and eat all their peas the leader of the free world will allow them to serve in their countries government.

bla blam horrors of saddam #58679364, bla bla, old scores #275649876, bla bla.

nothing about being invaded and divided by the invader in a secatrian way? oh lynnie i think you've missed a few points.

regarding my reference to our revolution and 1776. My point there was that at that time in our history we had not really had the experience in running our own government alone. There was always someone, in our case the Kind of England, who had the final say on anything. It took us awhile to become comfortable working together and running things ourselves.

sorry, i missed the part about the good little americans who followed all the nice kings suggestions and waited indefinitely w/no end in site and no guarentees about when the king would ever leave... and then the nice king thought the americans were ready and he departed nicely and then we created our government.

It will take Iraqis awhile as well.

you can say that again, especially since we are supporting the government that DOESN'T WORK.

And they will also have to overcome some very painful events in their past.

And they will also have to overcome some very painful events HAPPENING NOW AND SINCE THE AMERICAN LED INVASION, take a bow lynn.

We did not have quite that much baggage.

no, the king of englnd wasn't so adept at dividing us as the zionists.

I believed some Iraqis may not be ready to participate in their government, I meant maturity wise.

like say sunshine? how illuminating. they aren't as mature as say.. dick cheney who happens to be the allstar choice over at the comment section on your pretend PM thread. or bush, he's so mature.. hahahahahha

I visited a left leaning blog awhile ago. In the comments section someone seemed to be implying that the people who were there never did anything to back up their opposition to the Bush administration. One of the commenters there shot back with a rather shocked response of "what do you expect, an insurrection against the US government"?

yawn. and you think i have walls that prevent me from absorbing your storyline?

walls balls lynn. go use your psycobabble on some unsuspecting idiot.

Yet that commenter seemed completely shocked that someone would suggest they resort to violence to get their own way.

and of course you have no link to provide for this 'shocked' response.

i'll tell you lyn, i will be the first person to tell you if this country were invaded, even if it was to hang the much hated president, there would be an abundance of very unshocked liberals at the violence that would undoubtably would erupt. and let me remind you we are very divided, very much indeed BUT LIKE IRAQ PRIOR TO OUR INVASION, we aren't killing eachother. of course you can flush that right down the toilet if we were invaded by a foreign country, even one that hated the zionist scum that is leading our government as much as i do.

don't pretend this violence was just under the surface and erupted naturally. it is an insult to any thinking man.

I think I addressed all your points, but if I didn't you can let me know.

ok, you skipped one of my questions.

The Maliki government was elected by the Iraqis, it is up to them to find a way to make changes that will improve it.

oh really. even if that means going up against the US who supports it

so, would you be supportive of iraqis overthrowing the maliki government and evicting the US if they didn't like them running their country. what if iraqis didn't want democracy. would you support them? or are you only supportive of iraqis doing things our way? how far would we have gotten in 1776 if the king of england had any say in our government?

it is totally bogus to compare a country under ovvupation to our emancipation. really lyn, get real.

oh i didn't mean ovulation or ovvupation .. i meant..occupation.

oh right, we aren't occupying iraq, we are merely defending them!

annie

...even one that hated the zionist scum that is leading our government as much as i do...

Annie:
If you really hate the U.S. that bad, what in hell are you doing living here?? Just leave!!

You are one wacked broad and Lynn is crazy for maintaining an argument with the likes of you because there is just no rationalizing with leftwing zealots. Get a life!!

Me: "Yes. Clear enough?"

annie: "well, after 175 comments, so good of you to spit it out."

As soon as you asked directly, I answered directly. I don't expect you to understand the difference between supporting Iraq's elected gov't and being a fan of it. But the choice in Iraq is really to support the political process & elected gov't or support the violent efforts to overthrow & undermine them. That is why I can be fine with them having a "no confidence" vote but not fine with some thug like al Duri or Zarqawi trying to grab power violently like you-know-who did. You should think very carefully about Lynnette's liberal commenter story.

annie: "what if iraqis didn't want democracy."

They do, so we don't need to imagine how we'd feel or what we'd do if they don't.

If you really hate the U.S. that bad,

lol, to use rhus's lingo , I don't expect you to understand the difference between not supporting the criminal thugs we have in office and what you claim. nice try.

You should think very carefully about Lynnette's liberal commenter story.

you mean her make believe drivel?
you should think very carefully about this lie on the WH website , appropriately called Iraq, Denial and Deception.

the wayback machine

"The CIA operation that should have prevented the Iraq war"

make no mistake, this is gross violation against a country that was no threat to us contrived and concieved by racist scum whose influence will hopefully be eradicated from the halls of congress and from the WH.

DS: We'll have access.

HK: You'll have access and you'll have a good input into who's secretary of state.

DS: I do believe so.

HK: And the other position is. . .

DS: National security adviser.

HK: Those are the two critical positions.

DS: Right.

HK: Gotcha. Well, David, thanks for talking with me.

W: And we're going to get together next week. I hope you'll have your checkbook ready.

HK: Will do.

DS: Okay, thanks.

i am sick of having foreign agents meddling in my legislature. i am sick of my country being used in some racist vendetta perpetuated by greedy zionist control freaks.

sick of it! and we aren't going away! shame on you, shame on you for what you have done to my country.


They do, so we don't need to imagine how we'd feel or what we'd do if they don't.

what a gutless wonder you are. you can't bare the idea most iraqis may not prefer this 'fredoom'. dream on.

annie

those who have seemed to genuinely express compassion

this reminded me of something i read on the ohsoveryesteemed reporter of all progress in iraq blog michael totten. in the positively humorlesssly titled post 'the final mission, part 2' (can't wait to read the final mission part 25, or 60)

An Iraqi Police officer asked me if he could borrow my pen while I was writing in my notebook. I thought he only needed it for a second, but he ran off when I handed it to him.

“You have to be careful with these guys,” Specialist Henderson said. “You'll think they're borrowing it, but you'll never see it again.” He then gave me a weather-proof space pen so I could continue taking notes during our interview. The Iraqi Police officer returned a few moments later, handed my pen back, and flashed me a grin. They aren't all liars and cheats.

wow, how....illuminating mr totten. gee, after reading this report it really baffles me how iraqis could have survived so long w/out us.

The Americans were taking care of everything for them.”

“That's one of the things we do here,” Specialist Alan Martin said. “This station is pretty well-established. Someone takes account of all their weapons. They had problems with Iraqi Police giving their weapons away to family members because they thought they were gifts. Same with vehicles and stuff like that. Now they're keeping a count of them and making them sign for them, letting them know they're accountable.”

that's one way to spin distributing weapons. after a few hundred thousand 'missing weapons' our good 'ol boys decided it was time to give iraqis a little lesson on accountability.

i can't believe you guys buy this drivel. now you try to spin some make believe dialog from a so called 'liberal blog'. who the heck do you think you're talking to? go peddle your fanatsies to someone else.

and lyn, you are no match for me. i can make pretzels out of your arguments in my sleep. no amount of pyschobabble is going to elevate you out of your delusional reality reconstruction. 1776, pleeeease.

annie

annie: "you mean her make believe drivel?"

and

"now you try to spin some make believe dialog from a so called 'liberal blog'."

You're saying she made it up? So, are the liberal blogs calling for the violent overthrow of the US gov't then? that's funny. Annie, I remember making this point to you a while back, too: no matter how irrational your hatred for the US gov't, you are not engaged in a violent insurgency to topple it. Why would you support the violent insurgency to topple Iraq's elected gov't then?

Me: "They do, so we don't need to imagine how we'd feel or what we'd do if they don't."

annie: "what a gutless wonder you are. you can't bare the idea most iraqis may not prefer this 'fredoom'. dream on."

Huh? Most Iraqis don't want democracy? What poll are you referring to? Is that why millions of them braved your heroes' violence and threats of violence to vote in 2005? And actually, I had this poll from Feb-Mar '07 in mind:

Q17 There can be differences between the way government is set up in a country, called the political system. From the three options I am going to read to you, which ONE do you think would be the best for Iraq now?

Strong leader: a government headed by one man for life
34%

Islamic state: where politicians rule according to religious principles
22%

Democracy: a government with a chance for the leader to be replaced from time to time
43%

Q18 And which one of these systems will be best for Iraq in five years time?

Strong leader: a government headed by one man for life
26%

Islamic state: where politicians rule according to religious principles
22%

Democracy: a government with a chance for the leader to be replaced from time to time
53%

Q19 Regardless of what kind of system Iraq SHOULD have, which of these do you think Iraq most likely WILL have five years from now?

Strong leader: a government headed by one man for life
22%

Islamic state: where politicians rule according to religious principles
24%

Democracy: a government with a chance for the leader to be replaced from time to time
53%

Refused/don’t know
1%

Even during the worst of the violence in early 2007, a plurality of Iraqis wanted democracy, Annie. Long term, a majority want it. EVEN AFTER ALL THAT'S HAPPENED TO THEM. Now's your chance to take back what you said.

annie: "i can make pretzels out of your arguments in my sleep."

yes, we are all very impressed by your twisted logic.

lyn, you are no match for me. i can make pretzels out of your arguments in my sleep.

you want me to take that back? dream on.

rhus, i noticed how these options weren't on your poll.


Strong leader: a government headed by one man

Socialism: a government with a chance for the leader to be replaced from time to time

Democracy: a government where you get to choose from the selection provided to you by your invaders.

shall i go on?

you better watch your step or i am going to list you as one of the posters i can wrap circles around while i'm napping.

Annie,

I am thinking that Anonymous was right, I am crazy to even be talking to you. *sigh* But there are a couple of things I want to make clear.

I believed some Iraqis may not be ready to participate in their government, I meant maturity wise.

like say sunshine?

I was not talking about Sunshine. Maturity is not necessarily a function of age.

Yet that commenter seemed completely shocked that someone would suggest they resort to violence to get their own way.

and of course you have no link to provide for this 'shocked' response.

*sigh* I had to scroll through tons of drivel to find it again. Maybe shocked wasn't the right word, maybe angry was a better response.

[ "Honestly, if it means so much to you, then do what the founding fathers did and step up and do something about it old school"

You people bitch because some of our comments are not civil, but you think we should start an insurrection against the U.S government?
synykyl | 12.19.07 - 7:59 pm | #]

so, would you be supportive of iraqis overthrowing the maliki government and evicting the US if they didn't like them running their country.

I would not support the overthrowing of the Iraqi government. I would support the removal of elected officials through the electoral process.

what if iraqis didn't want democracy. would you support them?

No, if Iraqis wanted a return to a dictatorship I would not support that.

i can make pretzels out of your arguments in my sleep.

yes, we are all very impressed by your twisted logic.

rotfl! I can't top Rhus's answer.

how's this

Democracy: a government chosen by whoever counts the votes.

Democracy: a government assigned by the supreme court after the ptb passed out fraudulent ballots that didn't count

Democracy: a government where the president gets to invalidate the legislation handed down by the legislature w/the swipe of a pen (called a signing statement)!

shall i continue?

hey how about this one

Democracy: complete w/airbombings, mercenaries w/no accountability to your laws, who 'protect you while you're freezing in the winter, your streets are filled w/orphans, the dead keep staking up, desiease runs rampant...

i'm so impressed w/this 'democracy'. your poll was taken in a heated time w/the surge. i suppose the people who were interviewing for the poll had free access to roam the neighborhoods asking a wide range of iraqis what they were thinking , no?

annie: "rhus, i noticed how these options weren't on your poll."

I didn't write the poll.

But why would they intermingle economic systems with methods of governance? Socialism can be under a tyrant like Saddam or Hitler, or under a democracy like Sweden's. So it would really be another question for what economic system they want.

lyn, what lefty blog post was synykyl commenting on? what thread? link?

You people bitch because some of our comments are not civil, but you think we should start an insurrection against the U.S government?

this sounds neither shocked nor angry to me. this sounds like snark.

annie

annie: "Democracy: a government chosen by whoever counts the votes." etc.

Hmm. Now it looks like you're attacking the US system, and more pointedly the US admin. So, do you support a violent insurgency against the US gov't like you do the Iraqi one, or are you just willing to express your hatred for the US gov't on the back of Iraqis' suffering?

But I see your logic is starting to twist like a pretzel. Focus, annie, okay? Do you have anything to support your claim "what if iraqis didn't want democracy."
and later
"most iraqis may not prefer this 'fredoom'"

??

why would they intermingle economic systems with methods of governance?

huh? i'm not catching your drift. why is one acceptable and the other not?

Democracy: a government with a chance for the leader to be replaced from time to time

Socialist: a government with a chance for the leader to be replaced from time to time

I didn't write the poll.

so what. it is a push poll. ever heard of them? read the scum link above... since when is the definition of democracy 'a government with a chance for the leader to be replaced from time to time". hey, did it ask 'communist: a government with a chance for the leader to be replaced from time to time'?



annie

Strong leader: a government headed by one man for life.

take out the 'for life' and i bet they would vote for this option rather than weak puppet assigned w/uber influence and arm twisting by the US BECAUSE he was weak and pliable, just the way WE like them.

I am crazy to even be talking to you.

lyn, this is the smartest thing you have said all day. by all means stop, before you get yourself w/egg on your face again trying to allude this is anything any remotely like 1776 for iraqis. it isn't not by a long shot, not by a very very long shot.

annie

Now it looks like you're attacking the US system, and more pointedly the US admin.

lol, that is not our system you nut! that is the way our system has been implimented by these criminal elements.(addington, cheney etc)

and more pointedly the US admin.

no sheet shurlock.

do you support a violent insurgency against the US gov't like you do the Iraqi one

if you can quote me stating i support a violent overthrow of the iraqi government, i would like to read it.

my answer to the first part, is ..(and you can by all means quote me on this) i would be supportive of a violent overthrow in defense of the great constitution of my country. and in defense of the US government and any and all people who seise control of my government, including rouge executive power. i am a strong supporter of the 2nd ammendment.

The origin of the Second Amendment also occurred in context of an ongoing debate about "the people" fighting governmental tyranny, (as described by Anti-federalists); or the risk of mob rule of "the people", (as described by the Federalists).

anti-Federalists feared creation of a standing army not under civilian control that could eventually endanger democracy and civil liberties as had happened recently in the American Colonies and Europe.[22] Although the anti-Federalists were ultimately unsuccessful at blocking ratification of the Constitution, through the Massachusetts Compromise they laid the groundwork to ensure that a Bill of Rights would be drafted, which would provide constitutional guarantees against encroachment by the government of certain rights.

i would support a government overthrow if bush tried to use his new power of controlling the national guard of one state against the citizens of another. also the use of private militias, blackwater etc against the people w/no legal recourse. yes, there is a limit to how much butchering of my bill of rights and my constitution i can take. i would always be supportive of getting my constitution back, and getting my government back if i felt the forces governing my people were a serious enough threat to my government as it was intended to function as laid out in the constitution ..

if there were foriegn troops on our soil condoned by my leaders w/militias killing our citizens w/no legal recourse.. you bet your booty i would support a violent overthrow.

Do you have anything to support your claim "what if iraqis didn't want democracy."

wellllll, as i recall our host mentioned at one time he didn't think iraqis were ready for democracy after the invasion. being an iraqi it did occur to me he might be speaking for more than just himself.

"most iraqis may not prefer this 'fredoom'"

did you like my pun on free doom? i would imagine most iraqis would rather have an option over this 'freedom' of occupation. this isn't really free, you must know that. unless you mean free to suffer, there's a lot of that going on.

annie

annie: "if you can quote me stating i support a violent overthrow of the iraqi government, i would like to read it."

You are never clear and direct, and you've been caught lying before. However, I am quite certain you've never clearly and directly condemned the attempts by your resistance heroes to violently overthrow the Iraqi government. And later in that very same comment, you almost, kinda, in a circular twisted pretzelline manner... support a violent overthrow of the Iraqi government:

"if there were foriegn troops on our soil condoned by my leaders w/militias killing our citizens w/no legal recourse.. you bet your booty i would support a violent overthrow."

In the context of what you think is happening in Iraq, that sure sounds like you support the violent overthrow of the Iraqi government. How about it, annie? Are you willing to say you condemn the attempts of the insurgency to violently overthrow the Iraqi government, or not?

are you just willing to express your hatred for the US gov't

i do not hate my government, i hate the primary threat to my government. which i happen to believe curently resides in the white house.