Staffan de Mistura, the UN representative in Iraq, met with Ali al-Sistani in Najaf yesterday and “discussed the political and security situation” in the country.
That did not surprise me, given that the international community is desperate and clueless on the Iraqi issue that everyone is trying to find a way out. But the news made me wonder: Why do they insist on doing exactly what the Iraqis are asking them not to do?
Is that how it came down to in Iraq? One of the richest countries in the world, absolutely the richest in history and civilization and until recently produced some of the world’s brightest scientists, doctors, engineers, professors and artists-- now is reduced to a shell of its former self and is led by a turbaned foreigner, whose interested in nothing but to get a fifth of each rich Shiite’s income every year?
Iraq now is formally led by someone whose mission in life is, and should always be, answering questions like: Is it necessary for a woman to compensate the prayers and fasts which she missed during menses?
Or Is it permissible to manufacture, sell, or buy musical instruments that are made for children’s play? And is it permissible for adults to use them?
Questions quoted from Sistani’s website. You can read more here.
That’s his job. Not to demean him or disrespect his knowledge, but that’s what the man is good for-- answering this kind of questions is all he is trained to do. And some people need someone like him in their life.
How is that possible? 25 million Iraqis, and we cannot find 10 qualified men and women to run the country! Or maybe someone is not looking in the right place?
Who is Sistani to come and tell me and my family what to do and who to vote for? As a religious man, I respect him and his background. But that’s about it. I wouldn’t go further and ask him about anything else. He did not study politics. He did not study economy. He did not study international relations, and definitely didn’t serve in the military. The man hasn’t left his house in years. How can he be reliable or qualified to answer questions about the situation in Iraq?
This man has damaged Iraq more than anyone else, or I should say as much as Harith al-Dhari has, by just being silent. How can I trust him on my country’s long awaited unity when he encourages people to disrespect each other?
Read this, which I found on his website:
Is it permissible to offer congregational prayers behind a Sunni prayer leader?
And instead of saying: of course. You are both Muslims. You are both Iraqis and you are brothers, which any respectful human being would say, this Mullah answered: It is permissible but you must recite Hamd and Sura yourself even though the recitation may be in low voice.
Which is to say: reciting Quran by the Sunnis doesn’t count. You should do it yourself. Is that the reply of a man who wants to quell the religious and ethnic conflict in Iraq?
And now, the UN comes to ask him for advice on how to proceed in Iraq! And Mistura said “this is the first visit and there will be other visits to discuss the situation with him and ask for advice.”
Iraqis are fed up with religious leaders, Sunnis and Shiites. We do not want them to meddle in our lives anymore. They can continue to advice on menstrual issues and pilgrimage, because that’s what they’ve studied and have been preaching. But that’s it. Nothing more.
I’ve said this over and over again in the last two years, but no one wants to believe an Iraqi talking about Iraq! But now, the New York Times has finally figured it out.
After almost five years of war, many young people in Iraq, exhausted by constant firsthand exposure to the violence of religious extremism, say they have grown disillusioned with religious leaders and skeptical of the faith that they preach.
Why does the international community keep going against the Iraqis’ will? Why do we have to keep yelling “take a right. Take right. We’ll be lost if you don’t.” And the person behind the wheel insists on going left?
Why does the US and the UN keep involving religious figures, and not even the moderate ones, in the political process in Iraq? Who is advising them, if any?
Sistani and Dhari, and people like them, have never and will never be the solution for Iraq. How many times do we have to repeat this, and how many more Iraqis have to die, for the world to realize that we want qualified politicians, not turbaned snakes?
Painting by Iraqi artist Betool Fekaiki
At 11:28 AM, 
Omar,
Iraq is not and has not been in living memory "one of the richest countries in the world." This is pure fantasy.
Following the war with Iran in 1988, Iraq was ranked 50th out of 130 countries on the 1990 UNDP Human Development Index (HDI). This index measures national achievements in health, education, and per capita GDP. Iraq was close to the top of the “medium human development” category, a reflection of the Government’s continued investment in basic social services. By 1995, Iraq had declined to 106th out of 174 countries and by 2000 it had plummeted to 126th, falling behind Bolivia, Egypt, Mongolia and Gabon and close to the bottom of the “medium human development” category.
Iraq's per capita GDP has never been high. It is a third-world country that is cursed or blessed with oil that is the only local product people want to buy from them. The agricultural sector is pretty good too.
One of the biggest problems I've found with Iraqis is a completely unrealistic understanding of their own country. The facts are at your fingertips. You just need to do a little googling to discover exactly how Iraq compares to other countries. Look at South Korea, for example, a country with no oil deposits.
*
Good post Omar!
As for you Jeffrey I think you do understand that we Iraqis know Iraq much better then you will ever do.
Omar you wrote "How many times do we have to repeat this, and how many more Iraqis have to die, for the world to realize that we want qualified politicians, not turbaned snakes?"
As long as the turban snakes are of use, as the so called religious ruling family in Saudi Arabia is, the western world will turn to them. As long as there are powerful people in the world who want to paint every single Muslim and Islam as a threat these same people will see to it that these turban people are the ones getting the attention. To strengthen the idea that these are the values of Muslims see why we have problems?
Leaving out a billion Muslims of the equation who live normal lives and what normal lives for all is a must for them. Otherwise if they became the representatives of Islam the powerful people who want a war on Muslims and Islam would quickly loose credibility. A threat they must at all cost avoid. So therefore the focus on turbans, therefore the focus on the extremes and once in a while shove in a bit about that the other option is only a dictator therefore there must be something wrong with Islam and Muslims.
I live in Sweden these days. And just last night I learned from a group of 3 muslims girls and 3 muslims guys who have started a blog to get the message out that secularists Muslims are as ordinary as any other Swedish person. They sent an information about their work and seminars to a newspaper got nothing in reply. They had tried before to get their views out in newspapers by articles and usually got the "no space left, sorry". So then they sent a message to the same newspaper saying "I am a Muslim girl controlled by my father etc...please write an article" they replied in 5 minutes.
Some people in power really really want to put the image of Muslims as the Nazis put out the image of Jews. A threat. Then it was wrong and this time to do it against Muslims it is too, but who will stop them?
At 12:59 PM, 
Iraqi Mojo
At 1:07 PM,
"Some people in power really really want to put the image of Muslims as the Nazis put out the image of Jews. A threat. Then it was wrong and this time to do it against Muslims it is too, but who will stop them?"
Hmmm...what images of Europeans, Americans and Jews do Arabs and Persians try to portray in the Middle East? I've personally seen many unflattering Arabic editorials in newspapers.
- K
At 1:16 PM,
An ignorance of facts about Iraq is a common thread among Iraqis. Certainly, day to day life among their own circle is something of which no one can challenge them, but when it comes to facts about the economic, military, and educational level of their society, they seem to all come from the same school that produced the delusional Baghdad Bob. He was the INFORMATION Minister, was he not, or something similar? Was he the one that convinced Iraqis they are so incredibly bright and wealthy? The place was and remains so isolated from the rest of the world, how else do they come to such a conclusion? son't get me wrong, I think Iraq has great unmet potential due to their own societal dysfunction and due to the great potential unearned wealth under their feet, but that potential will never be met until they abandon the tribal, sectarian, and archaic religious mindset that leaves them willingly at the mercy of two bit tyrants. If, as you say, the youth are turning away from these things, then that is indeed something from which to derive hope.
More about my recent comment. Last week they had a debate on Swedish TV about Islam Phobia in Sweden.
In it a journalist talked about the scarring results of a research he and his team have done. In it they interviewed Muslims girls with hijab who had in local transportation had people pull the hijab from their head. Mosques in Sweden finding pig heads outside the mosque and even bomb attacks.
The Swedish media is so full of anti Islam and anti Muslim news that it’s scary. Most of their focus is on the extreme on all sides. Till the effect that now some people find it totally tolerable to pull of other people clothes just because its associated with Muslims.
Who benefits? Is the question I always ask when I read these articles and news? And there is so much lies and hate, so much left out that is never shown. Why?
Criticism is always needed in ALL societies but this has nothing to do with that any longer.
Does it help people in Sweden or EU getting along with each other? NO. Does it help the secularist Muslims? NO. So what is the benefit? Who needs and who benefits from the constant anti Muslim, anti Islamic badgering and constant focusing on the extremes as representatives of the masses?
There is always a reason why propaganda and negative focus is used by politicians and media lets be clear on that.
With all this anti Muslim and anti Arab news they might hope that it gives a portray of Israel as a poor country surrounded by a bunch of scary and dangerous people.
With all this they might hope it will make it easier for NATO troops and US bombardments of civilian's easier to get a way with in Afghanistan, Iraq or Somalia. Hoping people will have been so brainwashed that the automatic thought is that the dead are Muslims and had to have done something wrong or been a threat.
With all this they might hope it will make it easier to get a way with torturing of Muslims and Arabs.
With all this they might hope it will make it easier to get away with giving support to some totalitarian regimes.
If they started giving focus on ordinary Muslims and other people from the middle east such as you Omar who are just as any other Swedish or British person with what they want and think the politicians and who ever are behind them who have chosen war will no longer have credibility.
So they keep the focus on turbans, the extreme and dictators who don't obey the west day in and day out.
And we who want change when will our turn come?
Nadia,
It is very interesting to hear what you have to say about Muslims and Islam.
Let me tell you something. How many Iraqis in Iraq think that there were Jews in Iraq?
How many Iraqis know that most of their markets were owned by Jewish people?
How many Arabs got angry in Iraq that the Jews are coming to take over Iraq after the invasion?
How many Arabs feel OK about showing a story about a Jewish person was forced to leave their home countries?
How many Arabs think that Jewish people are just normal people and wold welcome them back to Iraq?
How many Arabs think that Jewish people are taking over the world and the "Jews" invaded Iraq as part of their world taking mission
I bet you know the answer.
I am definitely no trying to attack you or anything but I am trying to tell you that we, people from Arab origins have been taught that everything happens because of a conspiracy and that people always hate us and want to kill us all.
I, myself am scared of any bearded person I see even here in America. What do you think people who are totally ignorant about Islam and Muslims think.
We have to let people have the freedom to believe what they want to believe.
If you remember, Muslims got angry when the Danish Cartoonist portrayed Muhammed and Islam as terrorists. What did they do to show that they are not the way as they were portrayed?
They blew up churches killed people from other religions. Is that Muslims say they are not terrorists?
I actually think it is a huge step that the Swedish TV has taken to put that show on their channel.
Nadia, What Osama, Sistani, Dhari, Hakim, and all people like them have done will take a long time to remove the phobia that the world has from Muslims.
I'm definitely not trying to insult anyone, I'm just stating a fact.
At 4:50 PM,
Nadia:
You wrote: "So what is the benefit? Who needs and who benefits from the constant anti Muslim, anti Islamic badgering and constant focusing on the extremes as representatives of the masses?"
You then imply this inappropriate media focus is a conspiracy designed to benefit ill-defined enemies of middle easterners (Zionist and/or Neocons?).
Your theory really strains all credulity. Are seriously suggesting that the editorial content of your local Swedish media is control by Israelis or a discredited American political cabal? I will suggest a much more logical reason why Islamic militants and extremeists get far more media attention than moderates. It is due, in part, to the way media works in most of the western world. Simply stated, controversy and violence sells papers. Have you not heard the famous journalistic cliche "if it bleeds, it leads." Which means the newsmedia rates stories which include violence or human tragedy are inherently more newsworthy than stories about groups of policital or religious moderates calmly meeting to discuss compromises and agreements.
Another part of the equation is that religous extremists and militants typically have well organized methods for seeking publicity for their causes. They are literally willing to kill to get it. Are your moderate friends willing to do so? In the media obssessed modern world, much of the point of spectacular terrrorist attacks is to gain mass media attention. Such attacks are now viewed by millitants as their own self-produced media content, which must be recorded and distributed as widely as possible to potential supporters or financial backers.
For moderates groups to get their message picked up by mass media channels, whether on behalf of Muslim, Jews, racial minoirities or even political groups, those moderates need to out organize and outwork the extremists and militants. This is no easy task since moderates, by definition, lack the maniacal passion of the extremists.
Mark-In-Chi-Town
At 6:20 PM,
I don't doubt that a majority of Muslims are peaceful and love life and their families as much as any of us. But a significant number do not share my desire for a society in which individual rights are sacrosanct. The hold the fundamentalist view as it is taught in the Koran that ALL must submit to the will of Allah as expressed in the Koran and other Islamic texts and teachings of Ayatollahs and such. Many more are unwilling to speak against that view, though they may find it archaic, because they are subject to violence as is part of Islam. I have read the Koran, I know what is in there and I know what is done to people who dare to speak out. We've all seen it in recent years and have all had it effect our lives. It is tyranny, fascism and deserving of the disgust shown towards it. What we see in the way of 'Islamophobia' today is nothing compared to what is bound to come if the youth in Islamic dominated cultures don't reform or reject the fundamentalist aspects that are present in significant ways. You can try to make us feel guilty and use or political correctness towards that purpose, but people who love liberty and individual rights will never submit, and that is what Islam is, is it not?
GC
At 7:30 PM, RhusLancia
At 7:35 PM, RhusLancia
I picked up a newspaper today and the headline read "One billion Muslims did not harm anyone today".
Just kidding. Of course every paper highlights the worst.
Here is Michael Totten's related take:
The Moderate Supermajority
Omar:
Absolutely a fantastic post! Until Iraq is finally able to establish a secular government there will not be sustainable peace. I can't for the life of me see why the powers to be can't see that. Representative democracy can only function when all the governed are represented----fairly! Iraq certainly has more than it's share of problems, and I would question whether it will ever be able to succeed except for one thing. That one thing is the Iraqi people. With all that has transpired in Iraq for the past 40 years, it amazes me how I still find such quality in her people.
I honestly believe that the worst is in fact over!! The Maliki government has billions of dollars which could be used to put massive numbers of people to work, restoring water, electricity,sewer, and do the thousands of projects that need to be done. Elections coming up should produce a better group of politicians (hopefully yourself included?) It's been a long haul, but the light is at the end of the tunnel. My guess is that 2 years from now, you will not recognize Iraq. It will be THAT MUCH BETTER!
Good luck to you and God bless you and your loved ones and all Iraqis.
Joe from New Hampshire
Anonymous @ 1:16pm
An ignorance of facts about Iraq is a common thread among Iraqis.
The description your stated about the closed country fits perfectly on the States. It brought to my mind the series of lies they convinced the people to launch the war against Iraq.
Who lied more in you opinion? The guys who marketed the war to their people, or the guys who were loosing the war and trying to convince their people they are not?
Omar,
Good post my friend.
Ali wrote "I am definitely no trying to attack you or anything but I am trying to tell you that we, people from Arab origins have been taught that everything happens because of a conspiracy and that people always hate us and want to kill us all."
Dear Ali,
Well that is your view, that its all a conspiracy. I see many things as strait out facts. I have heard a lot say that the USA supports dictators in the ME and elsewhere because its good for them. Now that is a thing a lot of other people always have called “conspiracy”. Well it happened the first group was right. Rice herself took it up in a meeting in Egypt that the USA have supported dictators over 50 years. So there you go. How do you think supporting a dictator goes? Giving him free supper or a free ride in Disney Land? It means supporting a dictator in suppressing his people.
As for Jews being behind everything that happens. That is YOUR words too not mine. The Jewish people are as any other people, meaning individuals with unique thoughts and ideas each and every one of them!
Not one of us can argue against the importance of Israel for US foreign policy. Just have a look at the US elections and you’ll see how often the words of Israel’s security is US security are said and acted upon. Now if you Ali choose to see the words of US politicians in this aspect as a conspiracy well then that is up to you. You are free to do so.
I can also ad that one of the major newspapers in Sweden has a journalist that has done his up most to spread his Islam phobia. It also happens that same journalist is also known for his support the Zionist idea of the apartheid state of Israel. Does it make it a conspiracy to state these facts? No of course not, but apparently you think so I wonder why?
As you can see from my post I wrote a lot, why did YOU only focus on the part of Israel? Also remember that there are a lot of people in Israel that are totally against what its government is doing in Palestine as there are a lot of people in other countries in the ME such as Iraq that want change, move away from the religious and political extremes on all sides, more talking, more peace and more understanding! These are the people I think should get more attention!
At 6:15 AM,
BLOGIRAQI
Who lied more? I guess you need to be more specific as to what the 'lies' were and how you define the term in this context. Give some quotes for me to address.
To compare the level of ignorance in the US to that in Iraq is preposterous. Ignorance has been and is on parade in the Iraqi society and it is silly to even argue with anyone who would try to make the case it is not.
Personally, I have always been of the opinion that the 'war would be won' when the 20 and younger Iraqis came of and age to run the place. The previous generations have been lost. We see that in all totalitarian dominated societies. Those who have known nothing else are never fully rehabilitated. If the youth are turning away from ideologies that promote tyranny, Islam in this case, then the war is won. It's is just going to be a decade or three before the benefits are fully realized. Again, history predicts events and that turning away isn't limited to just Iraq.
GC
Omar wrote about Sistani: "This man has damaged Iraq more than anyone else, or I should say as much as Harith al-Dhari has, by just being silent. How can I trust him on my country’s long awaited unity when he encourages people to disrespect each other?"
Interesting, given that Sistani has repeatedly called for unity and peace.
3 months ago: Iraq's top Shiite cleric calls for unity
NAJAF, Iraq (AP) — Iraq's top Shiite cleric renewed his call for an end to sectarian violence in the country and for Sunni and Shiite Muslims to unite, according to a Sunni cleric who met him Tuesday in this holy city south of Baghdad.
Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani's plea for peace and unity came as a group of Sunni and Shiite clerics met in Najaf in the latest attempt by clerics from both sects to stem the violence. The meeting was sponsored by the Supreme Islamic Iraqi Council, Iraq's most influential Shiite party, which is closely linked to al-Sistani.
Later, Khaled al-Mulla, one of the 10-member Sunni delegation, said the Iranian-born religious leader called for solidarity between the two sects and an end to the bloodshed, which has intensified after a major Shiite shrine north of Baghdad was bombed in February 2006 by Sunni militants.
"I am a servant of all Iraqis," al-Mulla quoted al-Sistani as saying.
The wave of sectarian killings that followed the Samarra bombing continues until today, but has significantly abated since a major Iraqi-U.S. security plan was launched nine months ago.
Top cleric al-Sistani urges Shiites to protect Sunnis
Najaf, Nov 27, (VOI)- Top Shiite Cleric Ali al-Sistani urged Shiites to protect their Sunni brothers and defend them, head of south Iraq's scholars body said on Tuesday.
Shiekh Khaled al-Mulla said at a press conference held in Najaf after the visit made by a delegation of Sunni and Shiite clerics to al-Sistani, "The top cleric asserted on the sanctity of Iraq's blood, urging Shiites to protect and defend Sunnis." Sistani said in the two-hour meeting "I'm a servant for all Iraqis and there is no difference between Sunnis, Shiites, Kurds, or Christians."
"Sistani also warned Iraq's clerics of enemies' plots to differentiate between Iraqis," Sheikh Mulla said.
09/26/2007: Baghdad (AsiaNews/Agencies) – An appeal to Iraqi’s to “forget their divisions” was launched today by the grand ayatollah Al Sistani, the country’s top religious authority for Shiite Islam. The Ayatollahs peace initiative came one day after a campaign launched by supporters of Moqtada al-Sadr, drawn from the extremist fringes of the Shiite Islam, who are touring neighbouring Arab states to promote their anti-American campaign.
“Your nation is rich and full of resources – the official statement released by Al Sistani reads – I appeal to you to leave aside your divisions with your Sunni brothers”.
At 10:16 AM, 24 Steps to Liberty
Talk is cheap.
Someone with Sistani’s power should go on TV and yell at his followers and other Iraqis and say “stop it or you will be exempt from entering heaven” or something like this kind of warning that many Iraqis unfortunately believe.
He should have gone to Abu Hanifa a few days ago, when many Sunni and Shiite clergies stood side by side and held prayers. He should have led the prayers, not provoke Shiites against Sunnis and tell them that reciting Quran by Sunnis doesn’t count!
Harith al-Dhari and the insurgents also have propaganda videos and statements and websites and their thoughts get to be published on AP and REUTERS platforms. What does that mean? We should believe them?
The catastrophe is so big that no nation in the world is able to help, no military is able to quell, no newspaper or TV is able to cover. A few words said through representatives are not going to help, and we all know that. If you don’t, then you are so far from the reality on the ground.
Talk is so cheap for people with power like the power Sistani holds.
Is or was Iraq really "one of the richest countries in the world"?
Let's look at those numbers, folks.
Facts in Your Face.
For comparison, my home state of IOWA has around three million residents and generates $114 billion in GSP. Iowa's wealth comes from agriculture (soybeans and pigs), industry, and the service sector.
Iowa
population: 3 million
GSP: 114 billion
Iraq
population: 27 million
GDP: 94 billion
The state of California has about the same population as Iraq, but its GSP is 1.5 TRILLION. In other words, if California were a separate country, it would have the 8th largest economy in the world.
Iraq can become a great, prosperous country in the future, but NOT if its citizens delude themselves about the past and the present.
*
At 6:05 PM, Trader Bill
I can't stop shaking my head at our government for insisting on democracy and then pulling all the strings. We failed to protect the central bank and museum of antiguities from looting then Bremer abandoned the plan to let the Iraqi's decide who "the bad guys" were and started debaathification sending 50,000 armed soldiers underground with no way to support their families. Now we cheer the latest efforts of re-baathification without acknowledging that we created the problem in the first place. It is a tragedy that could have been avoided and likely Iraq would be more peaceful today...an opportunity squandered.
At 8:01 AM,
GC,
You talk like you don't know anything about any lies the US administration spread to convince the people in the necessity of occupying Iraq. Lies like the existence of WMD, and links between Saddam and Al-Qaeda. Which all turned out to be not true.
And you personally think its a good thing to just dump the lives of ALL iraqis above 20 now so the people below 20 can have a decent life?
This is beyond my imagination really.
Nadia,
I don't think it is a conspiracy, I think that Arabs tend to believe that everything that happens to them is a conspiracy that is done by the Jews or the Americans.
I think what I was trying to say is that most of people are materialistic, meaning that they believe what they see and they see a person blowing up himself and saying "Ash'hado anna la ilaha ila allah w ash'hadu anna muhamadan rasulu allah." Why would they not want to believe that Muslims are terrorists?
I was also trying to say that most of Arabs and Muslims have phobia from the Jews and think that everything bad have been done by them and I was trying to tell you that what the media is doing is telling people what is happening but I think it is a bit exaggerated.
It seems that you got my point as if I am antisemitic and I am writing to say that I am not.
There is a Nazi group in Sweden, the police found in their compound lots of weapons. This particular group (SMR Swedish resistance movement) have a goal which is to get rid of the elected government and install a strong leader and Nazi groups have commit murder crimes. No talk from politicians or police that they are suspected terrorists, or charged under the laws of terrorism or a threat to the Swedish people and our democracy. Why?
A lot of Swedish bloggers are asking WHY?
Can white Christians and atheist not be suspected terrorists in this war on terror?
Ali, the impression I got from your comments is that you seem to forget that ALL people are individuals with unique thoughts and ideas each and every one of them!
And then you seem to transfer this view of yours (that most people of the same race or of the same religion act as if they are one person) and say that they think this or that; which you then say you are against. I hope you can see why I see that as a wrong approach.
At 10:19 AM, 24 Steps to Liberty
Ali,
What are you talking about?
“most of Arabs and Muslims have phobia from the Jews” ??
How about Islamphobia? You don’t read or hear or see? The world now is clearly and admittedly against Islam. I of course don’t care about the religion, any religion, but what about the people? The innocent?
Don’t let your frustration with small portions of Muslims and Arabs blind you and prevent you from seeing the equation as a whole. There are extremists in every community and religion.
Click here and you will see what I’m talking about.
Nadia and Omar,
I know that there is Islamphobia, I have seen how some people talk about Muslims here and I have done a lot of things whether talking to my principal at school to let me speak to classes about Muslims or bring real Muslims to speak about Islam at a Christian school. So I am not bought into the whole media thing about Islam but I also know that Muslims and the Muslim leaders have not done a great part on their part to prove the media or the Islamphibics wrong.
Or have they?
At 2:56 PM,
Ali you are really not making a sense.
Where have you been the last years????? Over hundreds of millions of people all over the world who are Muslims, born into a Muslim family or just live in a country where the majorities are Muslims live each and every day of their lives as peaceful as any other family in Sweden or any other country. What more proof do you need? Or is this reality not enough for you just because the media you watch has chosen not to put focus on these hundreds of millions of people each and every day? Well then you should address your concerns with the media. Did you bring this up when you talked to a Christian or ordinary school?
How come Bush does not make you fear for the future? This man clearly states that he wants people to spread the word of god, the kingdom of god and that he gets his inspiration from god. The same phrases we are told are a threat to us if other people say them. This man has under his command over 737 military bases in about 130 countries, he has supporters who are willing to die for god in the wars Bush’s wages, he made surveillance law in most of the world, believes torture is okay and has access to weapons of mass destructions. Now here is a man and a supporting team that is THE threat to all of us.
So yes I agree with Omar it seems you have let your own frustration with a small portions of Muslims and Arabs blind you, preventing you from seeing the equation as a whole.
At 10:32 PM,
wow, what an incredible post and thread. i have been off the internet for awhile, as a result i couldn't help but connect the message of the post w/current events in our presidential elections..
As a religious man, I respect him and his background. But that’s about it. I wouldn’t go further and ask him about anything else. He did not study politics. He did not study economy. He did not study international relations, and definitely didn’t serve in the military. The man hasn’t left his house in years. How can he be reliable or qualified to answer questions about the situation in Iraq?
soooo, when i first hit the web what do i see? i huge media trip about blaming obama for his ministers political views! we talk like we are secular but what does the media do?? they pick up some radical political ideas from the spiritual minister of obama and try to link him to them. and how does he distance himself? he goes islam negative on us.
the power of aipac.
i copied his portion of the speech in question and first up on google? on the science forumn no less
"
There is no way that Obama can deepen the debate over Israel without demolishing his candidacy. "
and i can't help but ask myself, why now? why this? why are we grabbing spiritual leaders and giving them so much power?
i went to dinner at a friends and cnn was on, non stop obama's ministers, people were saying his chances are over!!!
meanwhile back in the real world we have nut jobs like boykin and rev moon and dobsen and cnn doesn't spend all night connecting their radical thoughts to the candidates. why is the media USING religious leaders to paint wide swaths againgst certain secular leaders? why do those leaders have to defend themselves by defending....israel??
face it, there is an agenda and how can there not be w/millions apon millions of funds being funneled thru memri, seek, aipac, it is not a coincidence, not in the least. these issues are used to divide, it is a political ploy, the timing? impeccable.
As long as the turban snakes are of use, as the so called religious ruling family in Saudi Arabia is, the western world will turn to them. As long as there are powerful people in the world who want to paint every single Muslim and Islam as a threat these same people will see to it that these turban people are the ones getting the attention. To strengthen the idea that these are the values of Muslims see why we have problems?
nadia, you are totally on target.
Are seriously suggesting that the editorial content of your local Swedish media is control by Israelis or a discredited American political cabal?
nice twist on logic. by the same token, are you seriously suggesting multi millions of dollars devoted to demonize islam is meaningless? obviously she never implied anything was 'controlled' by israel, but can you seriously assume these funds have no reprecussions? no islam baiting?
listen to the science blog guy. do we ever have a chance to talk about israel policy in the msm? seriously in a presidential election??? i mean you get called a friggin anti semite nazi! since when does disagreeing w/a countries foreign policy paint one as a racist? agiangst jews?
i'll be the first to tell you jews do not think in one mind any more than americans think in one mind. we have right wing ideologues using religion in both US and israel to further their geopolitical goals, radical right wing, and when you criticize it, you are a racist!
how convenient... for who?
You then imply this inappropriate media focus is a conspiracy designed to benefit ill-defined enemies of middle easterners (Zionist and/or Neocons?).
hello? do you think you can sling around a little term like 'conspiracy' and that magically washes away logos designed by thinktankers? face it, islam IS being demonized.
obama: "a view that sees the conflicts in the Middle East as rooted primarily in the actions of stalwart allies like Israel, instead of emanating from the perverse and hateful ideologies of radical Islam."
the idea that the iraq war has emanated from ideologies of islam is what is perverse. the iraq war has stimulated radical islam. it has empowered radical islam. we didn't invade iraq to rid it of radical islam! radical islam did not exist in iraq until we created a space for it.
also know that Muslims and the Muslim leaders have not done a great part on their part to prove the media or the Islamphibics wrong.
hey you! also know that many of those leaders would NOT BE LEADERS if it were not for the support the aquired from...the designers.
nadia is right on. as the religious wars are heating up, what exactly is taking place? more US bases, the expansion of israeli settlements..all right under our noses.genocide of iraqis and palestinians...
fools. all of us. genocide, being blamed on islam. disgusting.
annie
At 12:44 PM,
"Are seriously suggesting that the editorial content of your local Swedish media is control by Israelis or a discredited American political cabal?"
Mark-In-Chi-Town (anon), i read something this morning by Jim Lobe, The Washington Bureau Chief of the international news agency Inter Press Service (IPS), i found relevant to your incredulousness wrt to something nadia said. i thought it might interest you. it is titled:
Is the Pentagon Policy Shop Funding Likudist Fronts?
it may shed some light on a very logical reason why Islamic militants and extremeists get far more media attention than moderates. It is due, in part, to the way media works in most of the western world.
religous extremists and militants typically have well organized methods for seeking publicity for their causes. read the link and you can read all about them, i guarentee.
“Our aim is to create an open channel of dialogue between those who create the international news and those who report it, in an effort to articulate more clearly and accurately the animating forces behind American foreign policy.
The response to our efforts, among the media, has been both prompt and enthusiastic – [sic] editors of The Financial Times, The Daily Telegraph, The London Times, The Economist, The Sun and The Spectator have all participated in our discussions.”
....
“The Washington Headquarters Services (WHS) on behalf of the Under Secretary of Defense for Policy plans to award a sole source contract to Policy Forum on International Security Affairs (PFISA), a small business, under FAR PART 13.5 in conjunction with FAR Part 12. The purposed contract action is for services which the Government intends to solicit with only one source in accordance with FAR Part 6.302-1. This procurement is for technical support and consulting services for public liaison and media outreach services in support of the diplomacy mission including addressing and informing European and Middle Eastern audiences on the challenges facing U.S. National Security policies.
the only problem, is that the members of these groups are actually lobbying for positions that (officially at least) are opposed to american and israeli interests, concerns and official positions.
Now, let us recall what One Jerusalem stands for and who its founders were...... It is thus opposed to the official policies, at least in principle, of both the current Israeli and U.S. governments. Indeed, in the run-up to last November’s Annapolis summit hosted by Bush himself, One Jerusalem ran a well-financed (thanks to Netanyahu buddy, Ronald Lauder), public campaign designed to discredit and undermine it in advance. One Jerusalem’s founders included Sharansky, Netanyahu adviser Dore Gold, Feith (who even opposed the original Camp David Accords between Israel and Egypt), David Horowitz (of Islamofascism Awareness Week); and David Steinmann, the former chairman of the ultra-hawkish Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA), among other hardline Likudists.
So, you may ask, why is the Pentagon policy office awarding a no-bid contract to an organization whose institutional relationships and affiliations appear so opposed to official U.S. policy and which is so utterly lacking in transparency? And how is that such clearly pro-Likud individuals as Cross and Gedmin (not to mention the new Undersecretary of State for Public Diplomacy, James Glassman who, like Gedmin, is an AEI alumnus) are put in charge of U.S. public-diplomacy efforts in Europe, let alone the Middle East? How does this happen?
i urge you to read the whole piece. a conspiracy? that is for you to decide, but extremists and militants having well organized methods for seeking publicity for their causes????
definitely.
annie
At 11:42 AM,
Annie:
Wow! Earth shattering news! A former PNAC member got a $79,000 grant to chat with some Europeans media establishment types about global affairs on behalf of a conservative Republican adminstration. Nothing in the piece about spreading a religious war against Islam in any of this. I also checked out the site linked in the Jim Lobe article for the FP organization, which was awarded the grant. There is no direct mention of Islam generally, nor any call to arms for any religious war of any kind. It is just garden variety right wing talikng points about both foreign and domestic affairs. The site doesn't even have any orginal editorial content directed to Israel.
I have news for you, Annie. In case you haven't noticed, US admistrations have traditionally used their political allies in their PR efforts both at home and abroad. There should be nothing suprising about this.
In any event, how does any of this have even a remote connection to the editorial choices by the local media in Nadia's town in Sweden? Could you please untangle that logical conundrum for me.
Mark-In-Chi-Town
At 10:52 AM,
chat with some Europeans media establishment types about global affairs on behalf of a conservative Republican adminstration.
chat? media types? you mean " the Policy Forum began hosting a series of roundtable discussions, often off-the-record, with key American policymakers and leading columnists, editors, writers, and producers from the UK, European and Arabic press corps."?
and you have to ask me how does any of this have even a remote connection to the editorial choices by the local media in Nadia's town in Sweden?
the whole purpose of the formation of policy forum, according to its website, is 'to explain its policies to European audiences.' get it, via the media. editors, columnists.
Nothing in the piece about spreading a religious war against Islam in any of this.
which begs the question.. then why are you bringing it up? who said anything about spreading a religious war against against islam? who mentions a 'call to arms for any religious war of any kind.'?
YOU, that's who. you are arguing a strawman instead of addressing nadia's concerns which YOU translate as a 'war against islam'. not her, nor me. how interesting you say 'There is no direct mention of Islam generally'.. which of course is correct, but one doesn't have to drift far, for they link directly to organizations that very much address islam. check out their 'links', like say project on transitional democracy which brings us all sorts of discussion from 'threat posed by the Muslim Brotherhood within the US', 'TERRORIST VIOLENCE: IS RELIGION THE ISSUE?
',“Islam and the West: What Unites and What Divides Us?” , "The View from the West: are Muslim Values Compatible with those Of the West?" , to.........the 2nd International Counter-Terrorism Working Group hosted in Orlando by the University of Central Florida’s (UCF). In collaboration with the Swedish Defence College and under the stewardship of the world’s foremost authority, Brian Jenkins of the RAND Corporation,.
so no, the site doesn't directly mention islam but their links, including w/weekly standard, NRO, memri, DO. they very much focus on framing islam, framing terror, packaging opinion, directing audiences to not only think about islam, but think about it in terms of terror.
wrt both inforwarfare, and sweden, apparently just because YOU think sweden is off the propaganda radar, think again.
annnnyway wrt how 'US admistrations have traditionally used their political allies in their PR efforts both at home and abroad' i noticed you didn't address the main question that still lingers from my earlier posts?? why is this administration choosing allies to promote PR that runs AGAINST THE GRAIN of their 'official' policies????? unless perhaps their ACTUAL POLICY is in fact COUNTER to the official policy? no? THAT is what turns policy, into conspiracy. so, does that untangle your little mind? or is that just TOO deep for you to fathom? to remind you of THE POINT (which is not 'war against islam'.. that is merely the context, the framing being pushed, the tactic to a goal, the propaganda.. etc).
All of this naturally helps illustrate the connections between neo-conservatives in the U.S. and the Likud Party in Israel. But it also raises some interesting questions. If the Steven Schneier at the Prague conference, for example, is indeed the one described by Cohler-Esses eight years ago, and if, as indicated by the participants list, the same Schneier is now directing the Policy Forum, will he still be coordinating off-the-record press briefings in London or Paris by senior U.S. officials with the Pentagon? And if the Bush administration is seriously committed to a genuine two-state solution that does not exclude the possibility of shared sovereignty of Jerusalem, why is Bush himself addressing a conference whose principal organizers and sponsors are so closely associated with hard-line Likudist positions, from which even Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert had distanced themselves? And, finally, if Bush wants to reaffirm his commitment to the spread of liberal democracy and “freedom” throughout the Arab world, in particular, how does this forum enhance his credibility with the intended audience?
why? why Is the Pentagon Policy Shop Funding Likudist Fronts that lobby against the official policies of both israel and the US?
annie
At 11:08 AM,
one more thing mark, w/a mere tweek of your framing..
"Are seriously suggesting that the editorial content of your local Swedish media is control by Israelis or a discredited American political cabal?"
how about "Are seriously suggesting that the editorial content of your local Swedish media is manipulated, lobbied, spoonfed by Israelis or an American zionist political cabal (that is absolutely EMPOWERED, NOT DISCREDITED)?"
why..... the answer would have to be, most definitely, yes.
annie
At 3:36 PM,
Annie:
Your assertion that: the editorial content of [your] the local Swedish media is manipulated, lobbied, spoonfed by Israelis or an American zionist political cabal" is in essence an assertion that all Europeans, Middle Easterns, and particularly Swedes, are gullible enough to believe and regurgitate everything the PNAC tells them. Of course, this was not true back in 2003 when Bush could not persuade enough of the powers that be to get a UN resolution authorizing the Iraq invasion. You may realize that from an international legal perspective that failure rendered the invasion illegal (as was the bombing of Kosovo, but not the bombing of Afghanistan or occupation of Iraq, which both had security council approval).
I suspect that any European journalist talking with a former PNAC director would be far more skeptical of any message communicated today than back in 2003. Thus, I frankly think it would make absolutely zero difference, in the real world, if the Pentagon had explicitly authorized the FP to oppose US policy on peace negotiations in the manner you suggest (the article you sited relies on four "ifs" to suggest that the FP might be lobbying against US policy). What would any European journalist with an ounce of sense expect to hear from a PNAC type other than a relatively pro-Israeli line about the ongoing negotiations with the Palestinian Authority? Again, how does a tiny grant to the FP have anything to do with whether or not Nadia can get her local media to give voice to the political message of a group of moderate muslims in Sweden? The logical and factual connections you are trying to draw are just too tenuous for me to credit.
On the other hand, if what you are really trying to say is that some right wing political groups, in both the US and abroad, are suspicious and/or intolerant of muslims and that they attempt to promote those views in the media, I would wholeheartedly agree. In this country, it is their constitutional right to do so, even though I think those views are ignorant bigotry. With some exceptions, I would say that most media members, at least in this country, would be equally as unreceptive to such views as I am.
Mark-In-Chi-Town
is in essence an assertion that all Europeans, Middle Easterns, and particularly Swedes, are gullible enough to believe and regurgitate everything the PNAC tells them.
mark, try just copying and pasting, what i said has absolutely no relation to anything all europeans or middle easterners or swedes think or do. not in essence, not in assertion. nada. nothing. complete stretch. if you have anything whatsoever to back this up, cough it up. otherwise we can all see it for what it is, diversion.
I suspect that any European journalist talking with a former PNAC director would be far more skeptical of any message communicated today than back in 2003.
what are you babbling on about. this is completely irrelevant. all it takes is a few rightwingers identified in a few influential places to get the job done.
it would make absolutely zero difference, in the real world, if the Pentagon had explicitly authorized the FP to oppose US policy on peace negotiations
so what? that is not the point. why are you evading the point? why are you going off in some 'explicitly authorized' tangent when the question remains..why is the pentagon funding these zionist extremists to begin with? they are even considered extremists in israel. why are they task w/disseminating our foreign policy at all? it isn't like anyone w/a brain doesn't know their policies are fanatical. why do we hire extreme fanatical people who's main priority is israel, to represent the pentagon? about our foreign policy???
the article you sited relies on four "ifs" to suggest that the FP might be lobbying against US policy
no it does not. nor does it suggest .. it states very clearly, what one jerusalem stands for, which is in fact against specific israeli and US foriegn policies. (AGAIN:according to its website last June..... to rally public opinion in Israel and in the United States, in particular, against any peace deal — indeed, any negotiation — that could conceivably result in ceding any part of Jerusalem, including Arab East Jerusalem, to the Palestinians. It is thus opposed to the official policies, at least in principle, of both the current Israeli and U.S. governments.) the only if's are regarding if FP acts like one jeruslem just because they are run by the same people. da.' IF the Steven Schneier at the Prague conference, for example, is indeed the one'......hello! maybe it is another Steven Schneier!!! these guys don't exactly hide under rocks. they hide behind names like 'policy forum'. they open new websites and disguise the fact they are extreme zionist fundies.
What would any European journalist with an ounce of sense expect to hear from a PNAC type other than a relatively pro-Israeli line about the ongoing negotiations with the Palestinian Authority?
my point exactly. people who lobby against US/israeli policy are not, by definition, pro israel, they are damaging to irsael, they are enemies of israel and threaten its existence. they should be called what they are zionist extremists, they should not be hired (not a grant btw) by the pentagon.
how does a tiny grant to the FP have anything to do with whether or not Nadia can get her local media to give voice to the political message of a group of moderate muslims in Sweden?
go back and read my last post.
The logical and factual connections you are trying to draw are just too tenuous for me to credit.
dude, i never drew any factual connection. nor did i claim to. i stated i read something i found relevant to your incredulousness.
you play all shocked!shocked!shocked! ('seriously suggesting'!!) the neocons would be influencing the media in europe (stunning!), i demonstrate one (out of. i am certain, many many israel connections) little link directly into the pentagon and you go all drama queen on us. backed into a corner?
if what you are really trying to say is that some right wing political groups, in both the US and abroad, are suspicious and/or intolerant of muslims and that they attempt to promote those views in the media, I would wholeheartedly agree.
no, that is not what i am trying to say, not in the least.'some right wing groups' is not the same as zionist fanatics (zionofascists, i really like this new word..i am taking a page out of the zionist tactic playbook and creating a new name for them..and it fits!)hired by the pentagon , directed out of the pentagon to promote racist policy contradicting official policy. and STILL you won't address the point. you keep dressing it up in fancy framing to walk around and make it sound normal. you can't, it stinks. now , if that is too taxing on your comprehension window..so be it.at least you understand what i am saying enough to dodge the question, that is fairly obvious.
annie
annie
very interesting article i read today, circa '02.
seems this has been going on for a long time.
Whenever I get an email from the institute, several of my Guardian colleagues receive one too and regularly forward their copies to me - sometimes with a note suggesting that I might like to check out the story and write about it.
If the note happens to come from a more senior colleague, I'm left feeling that I really ought to write about it.....
clip
To anyone who reads Arabic newspapers regularly, it should be obvious that the items highlighted by Memri are those that suit its agenda and are not representative of the newspapers' content as a whole.
The danger is that many of the senators, congressmen and "opinion formers" who don't read Arabic but receive Memri's emails may get the idea that these extreme examples are not only truly representative but also reflect the policies of Arab governments.
.....
All it takes is a small but active group of Israelis to exploit that barrier for their own ends and start changing western perceptions of Arabs for the worse.
nadia, i ran across this blog post with a very interesting article By Lasse Wilhelmson in Stockholm about some events going on in sweden and thought of you immediately. it relates to someone having a difficult time getting something published in sweden.
Forum for Living History: This Story Should Be Told
There is a debate currently taking place in Sweden concerning the national institute, Forum for Living History (FFLH). It was established by the social democrats when they were in power in 2003. Its, probably unique, undertaking is to spread knowledge and to engage predominantly young people, for “democracy, tolerance and human rights with the Holocaust as the starting point” and to create awareness of the threat posed by anti-Semitism. “The Story Must be Told” they say, so that it will never occur again. Hitherto however, the FFLH has not concerned itself with The Palestinian catastrophe, Al Nakba.
The FFLH mainly supervises projects in schools and carries out dubious opinion polls among the general public. It also cooperates quite overtly and shamelessly with the Zionist propaganda institute Middle East Media Research Institute – MEMRI. The head is Yigal Carmon who worked for the Israeli intelligence service 1968-88 and now appears as an expert on Anti-Semitism in Arabic and Iranian press for a Swedish governmental organisation. Hence, we have here a unique example of the production of Zionist ideology, authorised by the state and spread through official government campaigns including large amounts of ready-made material, free of charge.
i recommend the whole post as it included the very interesting article no one would publish in the swedish press.
A very powerful, and in my opinion, correct post you made, 24. Unfortunately, turbaned snakes is all you have right now. A consequence of destroying all civil order in Iraq was that the religious establishment seemed like the only organised structure left, and the people clung to it. Not to mention that bringing in and empowering exile parties based on sect (SCIRI, for example) was a bad, bad idea.
This religious polarisation and empowerment was the fear of many people opposed to the invasion in 2003. Unfortunately, when the river makes its bed, it is very hard to change its course later on.